Hop Steeping - a debate

[greenxpaddy]

I didn't absorb it all in one sitting

I think the different alpha-acids are isomerised at different rates at different temperatures? You will still develop some bitterness in a long steep but not a lot. But maybe the alpha's that are more prominent in a cooler long steep are going to be completely different to those from a boil. Y'know I always thought flavour WAS aroma!

[weiht]

Capn Ahab, I dont know where you get the idea of 80c steeping or steeping hot as a mistake made by british brewers... In fact, its practised by more US brewers than UK until recently. Why did i say recently? Well, most older UK breweries use a hopback as a means to extract aroma, so I dont know where u got the notion of UK brewers steeping hot exclusively.

Most breweries in the US do not have a hopback and simply steep their hops HOT for aroma. Its definitely hot because it takes forever to cool at that capacity by ambient temperature. On your argument that they did it as a whirlpool because they want clear wort as a primary function and not aroma, I would not agree with this at all. Yes, whirlpool effect is to seperate the wort from the trub, BUT you are putting the cart before the horse. There are mainly 2 dif whirlpool setup, either in the kettle or the wort in run off from the kettle into a whirlpool vessel. If it was the case of the latter, then they would knock out the boil and let the hops sit hot for at least 30mins to extract aroma before beginning to run off to the whirlpool and chill the wort. Then there are those who have a kettle that can whirlpool, and this helps them save time on skipping 1 step.

furthermore, like critch said it takes alot of time to run off wort into the heat exchanger. Even in the best scenario where one would knock out and add flame out hops and chill immediate like u advocate, it still takes at at least 20 mins for majority of the trub to settle (or else u will clog the plates), and it still takes at least 30-45 mins to run off, that means majority of the wort is still sitting HOT at above 90c for a good 45 mins. Even if the trub can magically settle immediately after the boil, the runoff would mean 30-45 mins sitting HOT.

This is a very common practise today by most of the best hoppy commercial breweries, and they share it all the time. At much as I agree that at a homebrew level, the aroma gets driven off fairly easy if hops are added hot (which is why most of us here prefer to add it to 80c wort!!), I also believe that it needs a certain temperature on the warm to hot side to activate the aroma properties that we want, and of course a certain amount of time and agitation to get it optimized.

In fact, im not surprised that dunc has said he find the hopback and immediate chilling method inferior to the steeping method, as I have noted that St Austell has stopped using the hopback method, and most new breweries have also not bothered with it.

I'm sure that you are having great success with ur method, but to say that others are making a mistake is a MISTAKE. Brewing and to a great extent, homebrewing has no hardline rules on what makes a good or great beer. Firestone walker add their dry hops just at high krausen starts falling, but russian river believes in taking most of the yeast out first before dry hopping, and both head brewers have great respect for each other as well as the beers. In fact, matt at firestone dry hops in the dark!!

As a young homebrewer, i used to spent too much time trying to build my setup and process to brew like others on forums. I went around in circles and spent too much $ on changing my eqpt because someone says this is the right way, and thats a mistake and all the while I'm trying to brew like someone else. In a perfect world maybe, but heck my tap water is 30c all year round and the weather and air here is humid like hell and things grow very fast overnight if not careful. So one has to know his limitations and strengths, and brew to the best his setup and process allows

[boingy]

Sometimes I hate this forum. I was all set to make a DIY hopback in the belief that it would improve the hop aroma. Now I'm not sure whether I should bother.

Anyway, +1 to weiht. There are many ways to make the same beer, and sometimes the methods of the commercial guys are dictated by the practicalities of scale. A 2.5 hour run-off gives different problems and opportunities compared to a 15 minute run-off.

[gregorach]

I still hold out hopes that the hopback can produce decent results... Cooling the wort to ~80 degrees does seem to have improved matters somewhat - although that's based on tasting samples from the FV, so it's a bit early to say for certain. I also plan on trying a pre-oxidisation experiment with my hopback hops at some point. I'm not giving up on it yet!

[Aleman]

One of the big reasons for 'steeping' 'aroma' hops at 80C for me is to avoid isomerisation of the alpha acids and increasing the bitterness of the wort above that which I had desired.

I've mentioned it a few times that it is quite surprising the amount of extra bitterness you get from steeping hops in wort above 80C . . . This was measured experimentally by David Edge on a Brewlabs course many years ago and convinced me then that you cannot ignore the bittering contribution of the 0 Minute addition. Of course this is actually useful if you want to whack a massive amount of hops in at the last minute and derive your bittering from them. . . . although I tend to find that beers made in this way have a very unbalanced flavour and a citrus / piney hop flavour regardless of the hops used.

I cool to around 70-75C before adding my aroma hops . . . I don't exactly steep though, as I immediately start chilling using my plate chiller but recirculating the wort back to the boiler. I have no doubt that I am having some aroma compounds driven off . . . but the recirculation 'steep' actually allows some of the aroma volatiles to oxidise which makes them more stable . . . Remember that GW posted some interesting information on here regarding pre oxidising hops before adding them to the boiler. . . . IIRC he suggested steeping them in 70C water rather than adding them to boiling water and immediately chilling it. . . a steep in the wort at 70-80C does (or should do) the same thing.

I think Boingy has it right, sometimes it is a mistake to chase after commercial practices as the scale of brewing at that level just means some things do not apply at our volumes (and vice versa). I actually think at our volumes we can chill our wort too quickly to derive some of those desired 'aromas' and 'flavours' from the late hops.

[critch]

Critch, at what temperature would you advise us to steep at please?

id love to be able to steep at about 80, but i cant with my set up, itd just take too long to bring down my wort with my piddling little heat exchanger(a new one is on the cards...)i have to steep at 95-99 . id go with an 80 or a bit lower as aleman says you get a fair old whack of bitterness from a large extended steep so bear that in mind

i had one of my beers analysised at a local family brewers lab, the calcs said itd be a very low ibu (4)but with the monster addition i put in and steeped it actually came out in the mid 30's.......this was a high alpha nz hop though

[jmc]

I'm keen to know the best way for steeping, i tend to bring wort down to 80c with my ic, steep for 20mins then turn the ic back on to cool ready for transfer to fv. Not sure where I picked that up from though or if it makes sense or not, keen to learn though

+1 to above. Its how I currently steep.

One concern (confusion) I have is about the effect of the aroma hop steep on the cold break.

I thought one advantage of IC / plate chiller ( besides reducing chance of infection) is to quickly drop temp and therefore get a better cold break.

Will aroma hop steep affect this?

[Scooby]

IMO speed of cooling has no effect on the amount of cold break but rapid cooling increases the size,
if you chill slowly the cold break still happens, but the break matter is much finer. Others my disagree

[Dr. Dextrin]

I steep without cooling (i.e. close to 100C) and I agree that you can get significant isomerisation that way, resulting in more bitterness. That's not really a problem if the amount of late hops is moderate, as you can just allow for it in the 90 minute addition (by trial and error, usually).

However, controlling isomerisation becomes more problematic if most (or all) of your hops are going in late. In that case, the bitterness you get can depend quite a bit on the exact steep temperature and the time taken to settle and run off. These variables are often quite poorly controlled in practice, and I think that can lead to a lack of precise control of bitterness in beers with large late hop additions.

In that case, I'd say there's definitely an advantage in cooling before steeping in order to reduce the amount of isomerisation that the late hops undergo. My impression, though, is that only a small amount of cooling below boiling is actually required.

I haven't done any proper test of this, but I know that if I chill my wort rapidly (instead of using my usual no-chill method where the wort cools over maybe 12 hours) I can't really detect any difference in bitterness. So presumably isomerisation has pretty well ceased by the time I've run my wort off, at which time it'll probably still be above 90C.

[Aleman]

Presumably isomerisation has pretty well ceased by the time I've run my wort off, at which time it'll probably still be above 90C.

You can still get around 15% AA utilisation at 90C which depending on the time taken to run off and the amount of hops used can have a significant effect on bitterness.

AA utilisation does drop significantly as you get to 80C (to around 5% IIRC) whereby it's effect on the IBU calculations becomes insignificant.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Presumably isomerisation has pretty well ceased by the time I've run my wort off, at which time it'll probably still be above 90C.

You can still get around 15% AA utilisation at 90C which depending on the time taken to run off and the amount of hops used can have a significant effect on bitterness.

AA utilisation does drop significantly as you get to 80C (to around 5% IIRC) whereby it's effect on the IBU calculations becomes insignificant.

Sounds about right. Presumably you get that much utilisation if you leave it for an hour (or whatever the standard boil time is) at that temperature. My wort probably cools to below 80C in well under an hour, so I'd not expect to see much effect from letting it cool at that rate, versus force-cooling it. Obviously, the more late hops you add, the less true this is.

[darkonnis]

Having watched Orlandos linked vid, I am going to go with James Altwei on this one as what he says makes perfect sense. Each hop is different, and he mentions a few in the video whose chemical properties evaporate at such high temperatures you will struggle to boil them off. he also mentions how some have really low evaporation temps and as such, throwing them into a boil will just add bitterness and not a whole lot will be left of anything else. I think then, it is important to note that different hops behave differently, and that there really isnt a "set" steeping temperature, it is very specific to that hops that you are using to get the affect you want out of them. Of course you might find that 80c gives more hop aroma etc, and i would say that is because at 100c water is evaporating quite readily and the flavours are being carried with that, not to mention boiling off more readily on their own. Further more, if the temperature is too low you literally won't have the energy to drive the chemicals out of the hops in the first place and they'll sit there, of course dry hopping will get certain ones out but depending on what you want depends on what temp you'll want etc.
Also a point to remember about "aroma" the fact that you can smell something, means that particles are being given off or released, after a certain amount of time that will stop because physically, all the particulates with that smell/flavour have now gone. Again, going back to temperature, warm things typically smell more than cold ones as the particles have more energy to move, I'd say this is always the case but as I can't think of an example where this doesn't happen but there must be one! So by increasing temperature you increase the rate at which these chemicals are leaving.

In summary, 80c steeping isnt a mistake, nor is steeping, nor is there a set time for steeping, but to assume that 80c is the set temperature and an hour is the set time is just plain silly. I hope I didn't go stray off topic with that, but having read everything you guys are writing, you all seems to be arguing a moot point as you are all correct, depending of course one what you are trying to achieve.

[DemonBrew]

I have a combined Kettle/Whirlpool. No chance of cooling to 80C, so like Critch, I steep at 90c+, probably nearer 95c.

I let the boil finish and leave it for 5 mins to settle then bung in loads of hop pellets. Whirlpool at full pelt for 5-10 mins then let settle for 20 mins. Nice trub pile left in the base of the Kettle.
Then through the chiller into FV.

At these temps, I do find that I have to account for an increase in bitterness from the steeping hops and depending on the type and amount, a reduction in aroma i.e. Some hops need more quantity etc etc you get the picture.

But, I also dry hop some beers with Type 90 pellets straight into the FV as ferment dies down and aux finings and chiller goes on. Normally with Nottingham it's about day three.

I'm never satisfied with the hop aroma but that's just what it's like brewing commercially and seeing all these expensive hops going in....You expect so much more

[orlando]

But, I also dry hop some beers with Type 90 pellets straight into the FV as ferment dies down and aux finings and chiller goes on. Normally with Nottingham it's about day three.

I'm never satisfied with the hop aroma but that's just what it's like brewing commercially and seeing all these expensive hops going in....You expect so much more

White & Zainasheff in Yeast argue for dry hopping a lot later in fermentation but in a commercial setting day 3 might be "late" in the fermentation, it would be interesting to hear from you what happens by delaying a couple of days and comparing the 2 batches. Easy for me to say I know, I don't have any money riding on it, but as you say "expensive hops". There may be a cost benefit to it if less hops later works.

On another note I would uge everyone who has contributed to this thread and who hasn't seen the BeerSmith vid on hops to do so. I think everyone who has, has come back to the debate with, at the very least, an altered view, it is an eye opener as to how complicated the chemistry of hops and how they are handled is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qD17ZeTSsE

[greenxpaddy]

Darkonnis +1. Perfectly correct. Trial and error as always. If you like the result stick with it.