Identifying my problem...

[9squirrels]

Cheers for the suggestions.
For what it's worth, this is my water (courtesy of the United Utilities website):

Calcium 12.7
Magnesium 3
Sodium 9.93
Carbonate 6.6
Sulphate 26.1
Chlorine 10.7
ph 7.3

I re-brewed my most recent batch with bottled water yesterday, so I'll see if that reveals anything.
Although looking at the mineral content on the bottle, it's actually remarkably similar to my tap water, so not holding out much hope...

[9squirrels]

Thought I'd post my full water report, in case anyone can suggest anything else:
http://www.unitedutilities.com/waterqua ... e=sk22+4br
(Click "view detailed report" partway down the page).

[Eric]

Good points Eric, however a description of the water treatments and targeted ion levels was not mentioned. So I'm curious how you picked up that excessive mineralization was not the problem? All it takes are a few shakes of the mineral addition to go from OK to not OK.

Another potential cause could be iron or manganese in the water. The very soft water could still be quite subject to dissolving other metal ions since the Ca, Mg, or alkalinity are low. Acidic water conditions (like rain water) is easily able to dissolve other metal ions from any rock or soil.

A gut feeling combined with a bit of reading Martin.

While High Peak is further from a sea or ocean than most places in this land, it is well known for its rainfall that swiftly arrives from the North Atlantic. This water is usually very soft. I believe we export most of the acid rain we create to Scandinavia. I don't know about iron or manganese content, but the area was once famous for lead mining.

Currently I'm reading matter from John Franklin's first expedition (1819-1822) through current day Canada in search for the North West Passage, during which records were taken of several waters that were highly contaminated by minerals of many different kinds. That made me wonder if there is a greater difference between water in North America and Britain than we might assume.

[Eric]

Cheers for the suggestions.
For what it's worth, this is my water (courtesy of the United Utilities website):

Calcium 12.7
Magnesium 3
Sodium 9.93
Carbonate 6.6
Sulphate 26.1
Chlorine 10.7
ph 7.3

I re-brewed my most recent batch with bottled water yesterday, so I'll see if that reveals anything.
Although looking at the mineral content on the bottle, it's actually remarkably similar to my tap water, so not holding out much hope...

From those figures (assuming Chorine should read chloride and quantities are ppm), I would say you could readily add a half gram of common calcium salt(s) per litre of liquor used without danger of excessive mineral content. Have you added more than this amount? I can't find anything wrong with your water for brewing except a shortage of minerals, for if you were to remove 12 ppm of calcium you would struggle to make beer.

Also I note from the reading your water company figures that there seems little concern of metalic contamination.

Good luck with your latest brew.

[9squirrels]

Well bottled water hasn't solved the problem.
Hard to do an exact taste comparison because the bottled-water batch has stalled at 1.017, whereas the previous tap-water batch went down to 1.012, but the same harsh off-flavour is definitely still there.

As I mentioned in my last post however, the Tesco Ashbeck water I used turned out to be pretty similar in composition to my tap water. So I'm not entirely sure what this proves. I had previously thought that the amount of calcium I was adding to my water was driving the mash ph down too low, but I only added 1/2 a teaspoon each of gypsum and calcium chloride to the bottled-water mash, so I think I can discount that at least. (Or can I?)

So I guess this is pointing to an infection. Which leaves the question of where to start looking. Any suggestions?
I noticed the tap on my sink was a bit dirty, but that can't be to blame because the bottled water obviously went nowhere near the tap.
I'm going to try a new fermenter and different cleaner, but I'm not really expecting that to solve anything.
I'm still convinced the problem is occurring somewhere before the wort gets into the fermenter. Running out of things to eliminate though...

[9squirrels]

I had a go at ruling out possible causes, for the sake of my own sanity if nothing else.

I have had this same off-taste with:
Two different mash tuns (cool box and stainless thermo)
Two boilers (plastic and stainless)
Three fermenters (bucket, brupaks, corny)
Different sanitisers (videne and starsan)
Several different yeasts
Various different types and quantities of hops
Both fresh grain and grain that has been stored for longer periods
Tap and bottled water
Different hoses for transfer

The only common factors I can think of that I haven't changed at some point are:
Cleaner (various brands of oxy)
Wort chiller (standard copper coil immersion chiller)
Fermentation fridge (temperature controlled under-counter fridge)
Environment (all batches have been brewed in my basement)

[Eric]

No one else has reported Tesco water making bad tasting beer. You have to consider infection, probably also the easiest change you can make. Get a bottle of cheap unscented bleach, 2 cups into a 5 gallon FV and fill it with tapwater. Chuck everything in, taps and all, and leave them for a day before rinsing. When you come to brew, do the same at flame-out but for only 20 minutes.

[Martin G]

This little mystry now has to be solved for the sake of many people's sanity, not least yours!!

Here are a couple more thoughts.
Are your fermenters covered in the fridge? Thinking if there is any chance of condensation or contamination from the fridge getting in?
You don't mention trying different packaging, in the last list. Wonder if there is anything there?

[9squirrels]

My fermenters are covered and airlocked in the fridge, so I wouldn't have thought there could be an issue there.
By packaging, do you mean bottle vs keg? If so, the off-taste is slightly more pronounced in force-carbonated kegged batches, but it's still there in bottle-conditioned batches too. It's most noticeable straight out of the fermenter, so whatever's going wrong is happening at an earlier stage.

Anyway, I've got a new fermenter, cleaned and sanitised the fridge, scrubbed my chiller within an inch of its life, and put every conceivable container and accessory to soak in bleach solution overnight (it's been a slow afternoon at work!) If that doesn't fix it, nothing will.
Fingers crossed...

[guypettigrew]

Apologies if I've missed this in an earlier post, but do you bottle or keg, Mr 9squirrels?

I'm guessing the problem you're describing is with the finished beer?

Guy

[orlando]

My ten pennorth.

You haven't yet, it seems, got yourself a good pH meter, I would like to see the results of that as I don't think you have eliminated this completely as an issue. My other suggestion is that if you do get to the "if everything fails" position that you send your beer to Murphy & Son and ask them to analyse it, preferably different beers that exhibit the same fault, after all it's got me intrigued enough, it must be driving you insane.

[9squirrels]

Cheers for the input.

Of my last ten batches, I've kegged seven and bottled one (the other two were binned straight from the fermenter).
Of the kegged batches, only three have been drinkable. All three were heavily late/dry hopped, which masked the off-flavour for the most part.
The bottle-conditioned batch was actually quite decent, but it was a bit of an experimental split batch, involving honey and twice my usual amount of yeast, so there are all sorts of additional factors that could be responsible for that.
Either way, the off-flavour is present straight out of the fermenter, so I don't think kegging is the problem. It may not be helping, but I don't think it's the cause.

I agree that pH is still a definite possibility. pH strips suggest my mashes are slightly too acidic, but who knows how accurate they are.
I did a "deep clean" last week, so I'll see if that makes any difference my current batch. If not, I may well invest in a pH meter. (Do you recommend any model in particular?)

[orlando]

I may well invest in a pH meter. (Do you recommend any model in particular?)

Voltcraft

[dean_wales]

This thread is addictive!

One thing I would add is that my dad suffers from astringency problems. He has very soft welsh water.

His is due to the very soft acidic water carrying a lot of iron - if you run a glass of water and leave it on the side overnight you can taste a sharp iron taste in the background.

But anyway you have done a batch with bottled water now so I have no idea why I told you that!!!

[9squirrels]

Cheers. I can't believe how much of a response this thread has got!
(All greatly appreciated!)

I remember reading a post about your dad's water, because it struck me that I might be having the same problem.
I live pretty high up, on the edge of the Peak District, and I know there's a lot of peat in area, so it seemed like a possible candidate.
As you said however, the bottled water experiment seems to have ruled that out...