Persistent infection nightmare

[millmaster]

I don't know if I can make a positive contribution to the problem you face with regards to your infection issue.

I have some observations, though

Whatever is happening is common to all (?) your brews since your "dodgy" starter. This could raise a question about yeast/yeast handling and may mean its worth reviewing how you handle yeast, as has been indicated previously by Orlando

Second point is it seems to be happening regardless of the vessels that you use. From that my second observation would be maybe it is worth changing your cleaning/sterilisation process

I use washing soda and hot water to clean vessels and baby sterilisation tablets ( Milton or similar ) in cold water to sterilise after cleaning. I am not trying to say it will work for you, but the process you use for cleaning sterilisation is unchanged and "could" be a common factor. I cannot answer the question as to why your current process may be a problem. However bleach isnt all the same, the amount of sodium hypochlorite in the bleach matters and if the dilution of the bleach assumes 5% "bleach" but if it is much less then it wont sterilise as well as it should. "Thin" bleaches may not have enough active ingredient to do the job.

The third observation I would make is that is there a particular reason that you leave your brews for multiple weeks in the fermentation vessels ? I find I have stable FG readings in about a week after pitchimg and it is rare anything is not bottled or barreled in 10 days. An extended time open to the air may increase risk of infection. is there any way you can package sooner ?

Whether or not my ideas are any use, there is a fix, and dont give up on brewing !

[padders]

having read all your posts ,it could be one of two simple things causing the infection,1have you got an old or defective starsan? or how about one of the most likely culprits, the household tap where you rinse everything,especially if its a mono block tap!!!

[Piscator]

I have deep cleaned my boiler tap

Hi David, could you elaborate on what this involved... unless it was a full strip apart into component pieces it's quite likely something is still there if it was the source of contamination.

I would also say relying on starsan to sanitise the turkey baster is risky given your situation as it will be picking up contamination from the infected brew that you are sampling. Starsan is not a broad enough spectrum biocide to rely on in this situation and is particularly limited in its ability to deal with wild yeasts. Boiling it for 15 mins would be safer - using a pressure cooker even better.

Don't give up, you'll get there in the end... maybe try smaller batches until you crack it so the loss is less painful.

Good luck
Cheers
Steve

[Davidman]

Thanks for all the input, it's great that so many of you are willing to chip in to offer ideas and experience to help me overcome this monumental pain in the arse.



I have obviously been thinking about this a lot recently and I may have found the culprit (having said that, I have been here several times before to no avail).



As I have previously stated; I'm almost certain this is something airborne in my kitchen as I have eliminated everything else - replaced plastic fermenters, bottling bucket, taps, wands, auto siphon, tubing (several times), deep cleaned tap and hop filter, oxycleaned bottles and equipment, boiled bottling tree, boiled anything I can actually, replaced air locks, replaced baster for samples (and now boil it every time), weigh grain and mash in a different room (different floor actually).



The problem started just over a year ago - subsequently every single brew in that period has had some degree on contamination. This time period coincides with the cats food bowl being moved from the corner of the kitchen to next to the wood burner, elevated about 1.5 foot in the chimney breastbone the centre of the wall, very close to where I brew and bottle. The stuff stinks, and goes for days without being changed, sometimes going a bit gammy.

Surely the stuff is teaming with bacteria that could easily be kicked up into the atmosphere? Now, I'd happily get rid of the cat, but unfortunately the rest of my family seem to like him.



I know it's a long shot but I'm running out of ideas.

Funnily enough though, I had considered the possibility that my starsan could be dodgy. Either way, the stuffs not really helping me here.



I'm reluctant to splash out more on replacing equipment until I know I have this fecker nailed. A bucket, bottling bucket, wand, auto siphon and tubing sets me back about £40 a time. I can't afford to be doing that every few months and it completely defeats one of the main reasons I started brewing in the first place; to save money.



Anyway. I think I need to replace my boiler tap as the deep clean (which was probably not deep enough) had no impact. Clean the whole thing up again and maybe see if I can commandeer someone's house to brew my next batch. If that goes ok I reckon it should prove beyond any reasonable doubt that my kitchen is the source.



Cheers again for all the input. Appreciated.

[Alan30]

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles. ... eard-Beer/

Been through all this and nearly gave up brewing in frustration. I replaced all plastic post boil with stainless steel and bottle direct from a conical (Malt Miller) through the stainless tap. Bottles are Coopers which are cleaned straight after use and stored with a spray of Starsan in and cleaned/sterilised again before use. Touch wood all OK so far.

Some thoughts as you seem to have covered equipment and sterilisation issues;

- Pets and humans produce a lot of dander which is easily disturbed and a potential source of infection.
- I have a beard (see link above) so try and avoid leaning over any brew post boil! I once found a hair on the surface of a brew in the fermenter so it does happen.
- Large scale commercial brewers have removed human contact during the brew process and staff in food producing industries wear white coats or over-suits, hair (beard) nets and sterile gloves.

I reviewed my approach to process after the previous persistent infection and make sure that I wash hands, even for a peek in the fermenter, sterilise surrounding surfaces, avoid as much as possible removing the lid from vessels prior to bottling and keep pets and other humans out of the room when I am bottling. Not got to the stage of hair/beard nets yet!

Unlikely that such issues are the source of a persistent infection but just widening the discussion area.

Alan

[vacant]

Twenty minutes before the end of boil, submerge a couple of bottles and screw tops to sterilise. Just before the end of boil, remove, pour until half empty and loosely close them. Take one far away from your kitchen. Add a bit of yeast later and see what happens.

Neither infected: your boiler tap is dodgy
Only kitchen bottle infected: it's your kitchen
Both infected: it's your house or yeast handling
Only non-kitchen bottle infected: you have a poltergheist that is messing with you.

[orlando]

- Large scale commercial brewers have removed human contact during the brew process and staff in food producing industries wear white coats or over-suits, hair (beard) nets and sterile gloves.

But not all. This is Harvey's of Lewes using their open "Yorkshire" squares. This could be due to sheer scale overwhelming the bacteria but it might even be part of the secret as to why they make such damned fine beer that you just can't clone. To those that say they can I say, OK but I haven't tasted it yet.

[JonA]

This time period coincides with the cats food bowl being moved from the corner of the kitchen to next to the wood burner, elevated about 1.5 foot in the chimney breastbone the centre of the wall, very close to where I brew and bottle. The stuff stinks, and goes for days without being changed, sometimes going a bit gammy.

Are you saying that you regularly brew with rotten cat food in the post boil area of your brewery !?! If so, I would strongly suggest that you don't

[Capped]

Are you saying that you regularly brew with rotten cat food in the post boil area of your brewery !?! If so, I would strongly suggest that you don't

The story of one of our moggies diving into an FV of my stout and turning out OK (cat and beer) is well known around here, and I brew in close proximity to the cats' eating area! It's obvious that I'm living on borrowed time re infections - I'm admittedly very lax in such matters but have gotten away with it for decades by using nuthin' more than El Cheapo bleach. I really do feel for you guys who have pulled out all the stops but still get problems. Anyways as noted earlier on here, bleach is a great steriliser but not much cop as a cleaner. Mooching around a 'pound shop' today I found some of that Oxy-Cleaner stuff for a quid (surprise). This stuff is nowt more than sodium percarbonate which is sold elsewhere under different names at huge prices to pay for the relentless teevee advertising campaigns. I figured it'll be just the ticket for giving all my stuff a long overdue deep clean, what say you lot? The stuff I got today is unperfumed by the way!!

[floydmeddler]

I had a long lasting acetobacter infection a few yrs back. Lost over 200L of beer. Sterilisers didn't do the trick. Heat did. I passed boiling water through anything that I couldn't actually boil. I also used a steamer to sterilise my vessels. I also passed steam through hosing and pipes. It did the trick. I now run a small commercial brewery and use steam (wallpaper steamer) only. Have never looked back. Steam gets into every nook and cranny. Heat kills.

[sbond10]

Wouldn't it melt the plastic drum taps ?

[millmaster]

Can you move the cats food out of the kitchen altogether or failing that just on a brew day and the day before a brew day ?

Can you move the cat on to dry cat food ? ( As removing the cat appears not to be an option available to you )

[jaroporter]

floyd, how long are you steaming your equipment for? is it getting it over 100C that is key?

[WalesAles]

Interesting regarding the cat food. I`ve just bottled my Cerveza in the kitchen right next to the 3 cat food bowls, eased out of my way with my foot!
Perhaps it is the Cat food, probably not. I`ve only had 2 infected brews in 2 Years brewing, the Cat food bowls have always been there!
I don`t let my Cat food bowls get manky. a, they will smell. b, it don`t look good when you are bottling/brewing, c, shooooing away the flies is a pain!
Hope you find the source of your problem!

WA

[bigtoe]

I had a long lasting acetobacter infection a few yrs back. Lost over 200L of beer. Sterilisers didn't do the trick. Heat did. I passed boiling water through anything that I couldn't actually boil. I also used a steamer to sterilise my vessels. I also passed steam through hosing and pipes. It did the trick. I now run a small commercial brewery and use steam (wallpaper steamer) only. Have never looked back. Steam gets into every nook and cranny. Heat kills.

I often use my Karcher steam cleaner to clean brewing kit when i just can not get it clean enough washing it, yes you have to be careful around plastic. Interesting you find nothing comes close. I used to work in a large well known Cancer hospital and we had to AutoClave our tools before working in sensitive area's, the tools were tested before we were allowed to carry out maintenance....was kinda weird having totally sterile side cutters and spanners etc. We used to have 100% sterile oil also to lube the tools up with, if you didn't they would seize up very quickly as they were 100% clean and some. I once cleaned all my PC watercooling kit in an auroclave, tube than was seriously manky inside came out as clear as the day it was made, very slick way of cleaning kit.

I suggest to anyone if you want to get kit clean have it steamed/autoclaved or at least take note of what floydmeddler is saying.