toffee flavour

[Dan]

you might want to consider a rims system as an approach to increasing the malty toffee character. or melanoidin malts, i think you already mentioned caramunich.

[mysterio]

you might want to consider a rims system as an approach to increasing the malty toffee character.

[Vossy1]

Using a RIMS sytem puts the recirculating runnings in direct contact with the element and as such, can itself caramelize the runnings, depending on flow rate and other variables naturally

It is possible in theory and practice, to portion the running rate and power to the element, to create your desired toffee/caramel taste.

EDIT...one of the advantages of a RIMS over HERMS.

[iowalad]

Steve D,

Thanks for the maize or lack thereof on Fullers beers!

[monk]

we were chatting about US homebrewers attitudes to diacetyl and Ringwood Yeast which is often vilified as a big diacetyl producer and yet I had never noticed it in Ringwood beers. Their attitude was that their yeast does produce diacetyl (as does any yeast) but if used properly it will clean it up also leaving a small amount which in the right quantity isn't a flaw but a beneficial flavour .

US homebrewers tend to rack their beer off the yeast cake pretty darn fast, in my opinion. I think this might have something to do with excessive diacetyl. I leave my beer in primary for 1.5-2 weeks and have a nice, subtle toffee flavor that I enjoy. It tends to disappear after a couple weeks, though, as I've already mentioned.

[SteveD]

I think there is a hint of confusion here, and a red herring is at work. Diacetyl produces a buttery or butterscotch flavour in beers, not toffee, which is a product of the malt or caramelisation of the sugars.

From a site on beer tasting:-
http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html

"it is easy for the novice beer evaluator to confuse the buttery flavor of diacetyl with the caramel flavor of certain malts and the toffee-like character of beers that have gone stale. Practice with spiking different types of beer and drinking with experienced tasters will quickly reveal the differences."

[Seveneer]

Having brewed a diacetyl ridden beer I would say it's extremely difficult to mistake it for toffee. Sickly sweet butter

/Phil.

[Seveneer]

Agreed but I think to aim to brew a beer with Diacetyl is a mistake.

Use a yeast that's known to include diacetyl in it's profile by all means but I would not recommend taking a beer off the yeast early to promote diacetyl. I don't think it would be controllable enough.

/Phil.

[Dan]

diacetyl is always present in all beers to some degree.

I aggree with both daab and sevens points, racking soon after fermentation as a way of controlling the levels would make very inconsistant batches. relying on a particular strain to leave just a little behind sounds a better aproach for the homebrewer.

[delboy]

diacetyl is always present in all beers to some degree.

I aggree with both daab and sevens points, racking soon after fermentation as a way of controlling the levels would make very inconsistant batches. relying on a particular strain to leave just a little behind sounds a better aproach for the homebrewer.

Ok so the fullers strain is known for producing the a lot of diacetyl, so the general consensus is i should let this run its course like any other brew and what the yeast leave behind they leave behind. Then i will have something that is relatively reproducible and a starting point with which to tweak the flavours using the grist.
Thanks for all the input lads, much appreciated

[Dan]

my god what a topic !

This is going to be the finest london pride ever made !
we all want a bottle when your finished dellboy

[delboy]

my god what a topic !

This is going to be the finest london pride ever made !
we all want a bottle when your finished dellboy

Who would have thought we could have squeezed out a 4 page thread on toffee flavour, most other forums would have said 'thrown in some more dark crystal malt you fool' and left it at that .

Hats off to the JBK mob for showing such patience and endulging me in my quest for toffee flavour.
Might just have to bottle this one and send some out to those that contributed right enough

[delboy]

Very true DaaB, that said researching the brew is all part of the fun as well

[mysterio]

A little salt and pepper on your food enhances the flavours. Add too much and its ruined. Diacytl in excess may be a flaw but in small quantities it's a beneficial characteristic in the appropriate beer style.

I wholeheartedly agree here. One of my friends goes wild for that slight hint of butterscotch in some English bitters. I agree in a lager, for example, it's quite off-putting.

[Aleman]

One of my friends goes wild for that slight hint of butterscotch in some English bitters. I agree in a lager, for example, it's quite off-putting.

But in bohemian pilsners it is present above the taste threshold! What it does is to balance the big Malt and Hops, without it the high hopping levels in that style become nasty, and the beer requires even more aging that they normally do (! Week of lagering per degree Plato ~4 Gravity Points)