toffee flavour

[mysterio]

I've never tasted it in a Bohemian Pilsner myself... Then again I don't think i've tried one that isn't Urquell.

[SteveD]

I suspect the caramel flavours from crystal combined with buttery flavours from diacetyl could quite easily be considered to be a toffee flavour. Beer tasting is a very personal thing and the enjoyment shouldn't be clouded by the opinion of the 'proffesional' taster.

Who said anything about clouding one's enjoyment? Of course beer tasting is entirely subjective, and having been at meetings, and in pubs, and at home, where one taster praises a beer to heaven and the next can barely keep from spitting it out, I'm fully aware of that. All I was pointing out was that diacetyl tastes of butter/butterscotch, not toffee. Therefore, people after a toffee flavour in their beer should therefore not be trying to get loads of diacetyl, but rather concentrate on the right malt bill, and caramelisation. A slight touch of diacetyl in ales is no bad thing, but I'd never set out to encourage it by specifically changing my brewing technique to get it. You risk getting butter-beer.

[Vossy1]

[delboy]

All I was pointing out was that diacetyl tastes of butter/butterscotch, not toffee.

As i seem to recall the difference between butterscotch and toffee is very little just one has a slightly extended cooking time so i'd say its reasonably fair to put them on the same palate of tastes

[mysterio]

All I was pointing out was that diacetyl tastes of butter/butterscotch, not toffee.

As far as i'm aware, you cannot make toffee without butter.

[Seveneer]

FFS how many times do I have to type words to the effect that excessive diacetyl is a flaw, but a small amount can be considered beneficial where appropriate. I think in future i'll simply avoid any thread with the word diacetyl in it and probably ester just to be on the safe side

Calm down

Nobody's disagreeing with you that some diacetyl is considered in character for some styles of beer. However, what Steve and I are both suggesting is that to adjust your brewing technique to encourage diacetyl formation (as you have recommended) is more likely to result in too much diacetyl, which you have already stated would be a flaw.

/Phil.

[SteveD]

FFS how many times do I have to type words to the effect that excessive diacetyl is a flaw, but a small amount can be considered beneficial where appropriate. I think in future i'll simply avoid any thread with the word diacetyl in it and probably ester just to be on the safe side

Calm down

Nobody's disagreeing with you that some diacetyl is considered in character for some styles of beer. However, what Steve and I are both suggesting is that to adjust your brewing technique to encourage diacetyl formation (as you have recommended) is more likely to result in too much diacetyl, which you have already stated would be a flaw.

/Phil.

Yes, exactly. I seem to recall posting this line above:- A slight touch of diacetyl in ales is no bad thing, and all I'm saying in addition to that is that Diacetyl tastes of butter/butterscotch. If it tasted of bleedin' toffee, the bleedin' beer tasting judges and analytical literature would say bleedin' toffee, and not bleedin' butter! FFS! FFS! I personally don't spread toffee on toast before putting the cheese on, or saute my spuds in toffee because it DOESN'T taste like butter, even though butter is used to make it. Ner.

[mysterio]

So you're saying that toffee doesn't have any butter taste to it whatsoever? And it's incomprehensible that caramel flavours from crystal malt combined with a slight buttery flavour from diacetyl could produce a toffee-type flavour?

[monk]

"FFS!"

Wow, what am American can learn on a British site! I had to look it up.

[delboy]

So you're saying that toffee doesn't have any butter taste to it whatsoever? And it's incomprehensible that caramel flavours from crystal malt combined with a slight buttery flavour from diacetyl could produce a toffee-type flavour?

'nail on head hit the' rearrange into a well known saying , i think you've got it right mysterio, its makes perfect sense that the interplay between the flavours from the darker grains and the buttery flavour of diacetyl produces that toffee flavour.

Obviously in a light style like a normal lager or blonde ale there is no dark/crystal grains to balance it out and what you mostly taste is the butter and above certain levels its considered a flaw.
Makes sense to me anyway.

[delboy]

"FFS!"

Wow, what am American can learn on a British site! I had to look it up.

Glad our culture is still managing to cross the Atlantic divide Monk

Yes, we are a very computer literate bunch on this forum and can often be found chatting about the merits of FFS or the Berkeley "Fast File System," originally introduced in the 1984. Commonly used in implementations of BSD everywhere as a lower layer of UFS (alongside LFS)

[Aleman]

often be found chatting about the merits of FFS or the Berkeley "Fast File System," originally introduced in the 1984. Commonly used in implementations of BSD everywhere as a lower layer of UFS (alongside LFS)

And we really have to consider the contribution of the Flat File system introduced with ICL mainframes, and later carried on to the PC

[SteveD]

Yes, exactly. I seem to recall posting this line above:- A slight touch of diacetyl in ales is no bad thing,

By-jove I think he's got it, that's what I have been saying all along

I had it all along, m8, but that wasn't the point I was arguing. I wouldn't do that because you are right.

Mysterio:-Yes...diacetyl with caramel flavoured malt might give an overall toffee flavour. But you're missing my point by about 6 miles. Diacetyl itself tastes of Butter or Butterscotch. This is a fact. Comined with other flavours, you would get an overall different taste, like diacetyl combined with bovril would taste different too, but you wouldn't say that Diacetyl itself tasted of the combined flavour. What I'm trying to do here is prevent a red herring taking hold where some people were starting to think that Diacetyl tasted of toffee, and that they might start running around trying to get loads in their beer hoping to get a toffee taste, but without paying attention to the malt bill, which is more important.

[SteveD]

I think you might have mis-understood what Mysterio and I have been saying, neither of us intended to give the impression that we consider diacetyl alone is responsible to a toffee flavour instead it's a combination of flavours, probably diacetyl and crystal (imo). And, without going over old ground again, i'm suggesting to get enough diacetyl to achieve that you don't want to let the yeast clean up too much after itself because even high diacetyl producing yeasts can be made to produce a clean tasting ale.

Yes, I agree. I didn't think that you and Mysterio thought of that Diacetyl. What happened is that at the point where I jumped in, some people perhaps less knowledgeable were forming the impression that diacetyl alone was responsible for toffee flavour and were getting focused on it. What I was trying to point out was that that is a wrong approach and that they should consider other parameters like the malt bill, and also that diacetyl actually tastes buttery. Sure, you'd need some diacetyl in beers that benefit from it, and with a quantity of crystal, you might get toffee, if that's what you want, but it's a touch risky to go all out to encourage diacetyl, particularly if the recipe isn't formulated to take advantage of it.

[monk]

Yes, we are a very computer literate bunch on this forum and can often be found chatting about the merits of FFS or the Berkeley "Fast File System," originally introduced in the 1984. Commonly used in implementations of BSD everywhere as a lower layer of UFS (alongside LFS)

FFS! Quit confusing the American!




...and I thought it was gonna take a while before i found a place to use that one...