Hop Steeping - a debate

[Capn Ahab]

One other point, DMS like overtones are a classic sign of infection . . . IIRC . . . Pediococcus

Some strains of pediococcus throw a lot of diacetyl, not dms.

[Capn Ahab]

Remember kids, dogma is bad.

i quite liked the film.

VERY few uk micros have a whirlpool system........

quick wort chilling itself is bloody new, only about100-120 years old, before that coolships or basic no chilling where the order of the day , while i fully agree that dms formation can be a problem, its on par with hot side aeration, i have brewed over 600 times and NEVER experienced dms(maybe because im bloody careful....)over 3/4 of these brews have hot steeped hops and i can soddin' gaurentee theres a lot of hop taste and aroma in my beer. as for infection? not going to happen if your careful mate, pasteurisation is done mid 60's never mind 80 in a freshly boiled wort, yes there are certain spores that can survive 120.c+ temps but they cant tolerate alcohol, also hops as stated many times have antiseptic qualities, if you still want to create a whirlpool in a little boiler , heres a bit of lateral thinking, use a spoon.....

Why so angry critch?

Louis Pasteur: General Theory of Fermentation Physiology 1879. Who gives a damn what was done 120 years ago given how little they knew compared to us?

And anyway, I'm arguing that an 80 c steep is daft and unnecessary in a homebrew context. The way you go about brewing is necessarily different due to the huge volumes you deal with. It's also worth pointing out that I try a shocking pint from a micro at least once a week.

[soupdragon]

Is this is BYOBRA or somewhere else - I've never heard of it.

Here you go

Cheers Tom

[Capn Ahab]

Is this is BYOBRA or somewhere else - I've never heard of it.

Here you go

Cheers Tom

Are you having a laugh? It's fanciful in the extreme and just plain wrong in too many places to be taken seriously. I particularly enjoyed the poster who was sick of 'the American way' and decided not to add hops in the final 10 minutes

[critch]

Why so angry critch?

im hardly angry, more bemused.....

ive brewed ag for nearly 20 years, and hot steeped for 10 and ive got to be honest ive found a steep to be a great way of getting good hop flavour. the hour steep in homebrewing emulates the time it takes to transfer comercially, my system is only really different to a 3 vessel homebrew system in size only and i have to steep hotter than 80!

and i fully agree (and ive said it before) about some micros being bog awful, just cos theyre little dosent make 'em good......

mind you never take the publicans ability to fek up perfectly good beer for granted......

[soupdragon]

Is this is BYOBRA or somewhere else - I've never heard of it.

Here you go

Cheers Tom

Are you having a laugh? It's fanciful in the extreme and just plain wrong in too many places to be taken seriously. I particularly enjoyed the poster who was sick of 'the American way' and decided not to add hops in the final 10 minutes

Don't shoot the messenger.

Besides, Graham knows a damn sight more about brewing and the theory of brewing than I'll ever know........

Cheers Tom

[alikocho]

Is this is BYOBRA or somewhere else - I've never heard of it.

Here you go

Cheers Tom

Are you having a laugh? It's fanciful in the extreme and just plain wrong in too many places to be taken seriously. I particularly enjoyed the poster who was sick of 'the American way' and decided not to add hops in the final 10 minutes

There is so much wrong and questionable in that post it's unbelievable.
First Wort Hopping is not an American technique originally. It's German (and the German phrase translates directly)
"Certainly" - on what basis does he make this on an 1830 log.
Deliberate use of old hops - this may well have been a factor of economy too. Mitch Steele certainly points to this in his upcoming book on Historical IPA
Frozen hops may have had their resin glands ruptured - not if they've been dried before freezing. And one of the chracteristics of pellets is better extraction of both aroma and bittering compunds (although some of the oils are damaged by the heat generated in pellitizing).
Assume and imagine are not statements of fact.

As to the "hop steep" at 80 - could someone then explain why Mitch Steele (Stone), Garret Oliver (Brooklyn), Vinny Culurzo (Russian River), John Keeling (Fullers) all advocate "turn off the heat, throw in hops and cool as fast as possible" if that is so wrong? Stone and Russian River brew some of the most hop forward beers on the planet, so they must be doing something right...

[alikocho]

Besides, Graham knows a damn sight more about brewing and the theory of brewing than I'll ever know........

Cheers Tom

He might know alot aboout brewing and theory, but it isn't well communicated and some of it is just plain wrong (Horst Dornbusch is exactly the same in this regard - go read Shut Up About Barclay Perkins for more on him).

Knowledge is one thing, but effectively passing it on is another. And if you're going to make incorrect assertions or make assumptions, someone is going to call you out on them.

[alikocho]

Or is it that DMS is a different sort of volatile component???

It's not the formation of DMS that is the issue. It's the formation of SMM, the precursor to DMS that occurs below boiling (even post boil). The more you can reduce it's production, the less likely the formation of DMS.

This is hard scientific fact.

Some strains of Lactobacillus are able to withstand temperatures above 80C (ever wonder why you BOIL for 15 minutes to sterilise - this is Tyndallization should you care, and why autoclaving is employed at even higher temps), so you don't guarantee to guard against infection at this point.

Again, hard scientific fact.

It's also worth pointing out that even at 80C the volatile hop oils will flash off. Most are gone by 120-140F, which is WAY below that.

Yet again, hard scientific fact, which explains why hop-drying needs to be done at low temperatures.

Nobody is saying that these are things that will inevitably cause problems, but they are things that occur and pose certain risks to the finished beer. The brewing process is, essentially, a series of control points (which includes controlling risk). Control points give the brewer the opportunity to make decisions based on their own desires and parameters. In the end, you do what you do, and get what you get.

[alikocho]

John Palmer on cooling fast is here - http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

Note the references to infection and to SMM as well as the cold break.

[Aleman]

It's not the formation of DMS that is the issue. It's the formation of SMM, the precursor to DMS that occurs below boiling (even post boil). The more you can reduce it's production, the less likely the formation of DMS.

This is hard scientific fact.

Actually, no it isn't.

"SMM (The precursor to DMS) is formed in the germinating barley kernel. The more germination proceeds the more SMM is produced. Furthermore different varieties of barley have different capacities for making SMM. Other impacts on its level are the environment in which barley is grown, how much nitrogen fertiliser is put on the field when the barley is grown, and how mature the barley is before it is malted.

Heating breaks down SMM, and so when the malt is kilned, the SMM is broken down to DMS and this is blown off by the stream of air on the kiln. Hence the more strongly the malt is kilned, the more SMM is broken down and the less survives to enter the brewery. Thus malts destined for ales contain less SMM than do those intended for lagers, and as a result, ales generally contain less DMS than do lagers, because the SMM represents 'DMS Potential'.

In the brew house, SMM is extracted into the wort during mashing, but it is broken down in the boiling stage. The more intensely the wort is boiled, the greater the breakdown of SMM to DMS, which, in a vigorous boil is driven off"

Grape Vs. Grain: A Historical, Technological, and Social Comparison of Wine and Beer. Bamforth

I suspect that all those breweries that have a Hop Forward style are happy with the increased isomerisation of alpha acids that they get by adding the hops at near boiling . . . indeed they would welcome it, for those of us that are trying to brew balanced beers to a 'certain' IBU level then the increased isomerisation derived from those hops is sufficient to more than over bitter the beer. it is solely for that reason alone that I halt chilling at between 70 and 80C add the hops, Stir, rest briefly (around 5 minutes) and then continue chilling. That I have found, in my system, that I also get a longer lasting aroma is a bonus.

[alikocho]

It's not the formation of DMS that is the issue. It's the formation of SMM, the precursor to DMS that occurs below boiling (even post boil). The more you can reduce it's production, the less likely the formation of DMS.

This is hard scientific fact.

Actually, no it isn't.

"SMM (The precursor to DMS) is formed in the germinating barley kernel. The more germination proceeds the more SMM is produced. Furthermore different varieties of barley have different capacities for making SMM. Other impacts on its level are the environment in which barley is grown, how much nitrogen fertiliser is put on the field when the barley is grown, and how mature the barley is before it is malted.

Heating breaks down SMM, and so when the malt is kilned, the SMM is broken down to DMS and this is blown off by the stream of air on the kiln. Hence the more strongly the malt is kilned, the more SMM is broken down and the less survives to enter the brewery. Thus malts destined for ales contain less SMM than do those intended for lagers, and as a result, ales generally contain less DMS than do lagers, because the SMM represents 'DMS Potential'.

In the brew house, SMM is extracted into the wort during mashing, but it is broken down in the boiling stage. The more intensely the wort is boiled, the greater the breakdown of SMM to DMS, which, in a vigorous boil is driven off"

Grape Vs. Grain: A Historical, Technological, and Social Comparison of Wine and Beer. Bamforth

George Fix's, Principles of Brewing Science and disagrees with this position as indeed does Bamforth's earlier book, Beer: Tap into the Art and Science of Brewing and his volume with Lewis, Essays in Brewing Science. And Bamforth has been heard (by me in person) to state that SMM is still given off and converting to DMS post boil.

And what is being missed here is the temperature at which SMM is released from the malt and converts to DMS (and how much remains in the wort). Despite some apparent conflicting views, the science actually seems to agree that it is at boiling (or very near) that DMS is boiled off.

[Capn Ahab]

That Bamforth quote in no way negates what Ali said; in fact the points are mutually supportive as far as I can tell.

Aleman - also interesting to see, that while your aroma addition is below boiling, you pretty much 'bang and chill'.

[alikocho]

I suspect that all those breweries that have a Hop Forward style are happy with the increased isomerisation of alpha acids that they get by adding the hops at near boiling . . . indeed they would welcome it, for those of us that are trying to brew balanced beers to a 'certain' IBU level then the increased isomerisation derived from those hops is sufficient to more than over bitter the beer. it is solely for that reason alone that I halt chilling at between 70 and 80C add the hops, Stir, rest briefly (around 5 minutes) and then continue chilling. That I have found, in my system, that I also get a longer lasting aroma is a bonus.

Balance is not about having things even, it's about where the balance lies. It can be even, towards the malt or even towards the hops. Things can be out of balance, but think more in terms of moving a fulcrum to keep the lever level than tipping it one way. This then explains why a highly hopped beer needs a sufficient malt backbone to maintain its balance and a malty beer enough bitterness to balance the sweetness.

The 'welcoming' on increased bitterness - they are using flameout hops for aroma primarily. They may derive some bitterness, but whether an individual beer is 'over-bittered' or not would depend on the beer and an individual's tastes (and the reference to style parameters). IBU is a formula for most people. Are you confident that what you calculate is the same as what the IBU of the beer actually is?

And as for what you do - as I mentioned above, you do what you do and you get what you get. If it works for you...

[Capn Ahab]

The brewing process is, essentially, a series of control points (which includes controlling risk). Control points give the brewer the opportunity to make decisions based on their own desires and parameters. In the end, you do what you do, and get what you get.

Nailed.