Fining a lager in secondary

[Neal]

Hi all,

I'm dropping my 'Demonic Dunkel' into the 2ary vessel today, where it is to lager for a few cold weeks prior to bottling.

As a belt and braces approach, I was thinking of also adding gelatine at some point prior to bottling. So:

Should I add the gelatine now or wait until a few days prior to bottling i.e. will the clarification at this stage hamper the lagering?

[mysterio]

I've also noticed finings to be ineffective with lager yeast

[Neal]

Many thanks chaps, however I think I need a few other pointers as far as lagering goes.
I'm a bit new to the intricacies of it.

Short time in the carboy followed by long period of bottle conditioning
OR
Long time in the carboy followed by shorter period of bottle conditioning
OR
It doesn't matter which way you do it

I'm thinking the former to ensure enough yeast gets into the bottles for carbonation. Any expert opinions?

[mysterio]

Well I think there's a trade off. The lagering process works much better in bulk. I've heard John Palmer and various comments on the HBD that lagering doesnt work as well in the bottle. But you're right, you'll run into problems when carbonating the bottles. Easy way around that is to rehydrate a few grams of saflager yeast, and then distribute it throughout the beer before bottling being careful not to aerate. Literally a few grams are all thats needed, a gram per gallon or thereabouts.

[Horden Hillbilly]

After fermenting, I usually transfer Mrs H's lagers to a budget pressure barrel & leave it for 7-10 days before bottling. I have had no carbonation problems doing it this way.

[hoppingMad]

Nothing wrong with adding a LITTLE yeast at bottling, but really, you don't need to. I have used Saf S-23 many times and lagered for up to 5 weeks at 2 degrees C, then bottled. I have never had problems with the beer not carbonating properly in 3 weeks or so. My bottle conditioning regime is, the first week at 20 degrees then the last two at ambient ( 12-15 C ). Nor have I ever read anyone say they have had problems.

Regading your first querry about lagering and adding finings, Lager in the secondary for 2 weeks minimum (preferably 4) at 2 degrees C, or 4-5 weeks at 4 degrees C. This will drop out a heck of a lot of material Including much of the chill haze. I would advocate trying this properly first without using finings, because I believe you will be pleased with the resulting clarity. Chilling lagers to this temp really does what finings do at warmer temps.

In order for the above to work properly, it may have required that you did the following correctly: A good rolling boil, use of irish moss, fast chilling of the wort ( down to 35 degrees C within 20 mins) . i.e. a good hot break and a good cold break.
Hopp.

[Aleman]

hM is correct, it may very well look clear but there is yeast in suspension.

In this thread Steve Flack Calculates the amount of yeast required

quote="Steve_Flack"]According to Jamil Zainasheff, dried yeast contain approx 20 billion cells per gramme. Most brewers bottle condition with between 1-3 million cells per ml of beer (Sierra Nevada use 2 million in their pale ale so we'll go with that).

So

20L of beer is 20,000ml and we need 2 million cells in each ml

= 40 billion cells in a 20L batch.

= 2g of rehydrated dried yeast assuming 100% viability. [/quote]

Personally I would go with much less than that, probably aiming for no higher than 500,000 cells per ml. I try and get a 'paint layer' thickness of yeast on the bottom of my BCA's . . . and they carbonate fine