First Runnings

[PieOPah]

One of my biggest downfalls with mashing is the vourloff.

I was thinking.....

Rather than recirculating the run off, would running it through a fine sieve be as effective? Or more precisely running it through a grain bag... This should effectively filter out most particles?

[Matt]

Wouldn't that be risking aeration>oxidisation?

[PieOPah]

You see, I don't quite get the whole thing with HSA. Surely when you are boiling this will help drive out oxygen. Plus, with a rolling boil isn't your wort splashing about anyway?

Maybe I just need to be more patient with my run off

[PieOPah]

I think that my main problem is the 'gently returning'. I have tried slotted tin foil but this doesn't seem to do anything. I have tried over the back of a spoon but this doesn't seem to want to work to well and ends up slashing. I tried over the back of a bowl but this had it's own problems.

I'll just keep trying until I find a method that works

That and more patience. I'm probably not running off enough wort!!!

Also, does the speed of the runoff make much difference? Can it be full flow or does it need to be a trickle?

[flytact]

Not quite sure what you mean by "downfalls". Meaning you never do it right or you never do it because of the time it takes?
I take a plastic plate from the kids play kitchen or a lid from a plastic container and pour the runoff over top. This disperses the stream of liquid an keeps the grain bed undisturbed. I'll stop when I can't see any bits in the run off tube. This usually takes no more than 5 minutes.

If you strained it through a bag wouldn't you be ruining some of your efficiency? You want the liquid to be in contact with the grain for as long as possible, right? Also, about a third of the way through your run off, you'll have a natural filter and the grain bag would be redundant.

[Andy]

Perhaps if you let us know what problems you have with the first runnings then we could help.

[bitter_dave]

I think a lot of concern has been created by the fact that Wheeler says that run offs should be 'bright', which, I think, people interpret as meaning 'clear'. I got really paranoid about getting clear run offs when I started brewing, but getting clear run offs has elluded me and I don't think my beer has suffered as a result (which is not to say it couldn't be improved in other areas)

[mysterio]

I do the same as Daab, remember the object of the vorlauf is to filter out any chunks of grain rather than achieve crystal-clear runnings. My run-off is always fairly cloudy but this doesn't impact on the clarity of the final beer.

Edit: B_D beat me to it

[PieOPah]

Thanks guys. I think I just need to run off more wort then rather than thinking about much else at this time...

[UserDeleted]

The issue with HSA is that o2 bonds itself on a molecular level to stuff (proteins?) in the wort although this only occurs above 71 deg c. At no point during the mashing and sparging process is the wort subject to this temperatre and aeration, unless you start stiring the mash vigerously whilst sparging.

Sorry coblers! The mash absorbs an incredible amount of oxygen during the 90 minutes or so. IIRC AJ deLange measured the O2 levels in the airspace above a mash and in the mash itself, and was amazed at the rate of O2 uptake. (He reported this to the HBD a good few years ago).

And then you have the fact that Oxidation of chemical compounds can actually take place without the presence of oxygen at all. All that is required is another chemical present in the environment that is willing to donate an electron. Once chemical becomes 'reduced' and the other 'oxidised' These reduction-oxidation reactions take place at all temperatures, of course higher temperatures do cause reactions to take place faster.

Barker (1983, J.Inst. Brewing) showed that there is an enzymatic pathway leading to HSA products, and Nyborg et. el.(1999 J Am. Soc. Brew. Chem. 57:1) showed that in fresh beers Trans-2-nonenal (the major compound identified with HSA) and its precursors are bound up with natural sulphur compounds from yeast metabolism. However, after a lag, which is reduced if thermal or mechanical abuse occurs, the effects of T2N start becoming discernable).

Studies have shown (See Cantrell and Giggs 1996 MBAA Tech. Qr. 33:2, Forster et.al. 1998 MBAA Tech Qr, 35:2, and Lermusuary et.al. 1999 J.Am. Brew. Chem. 57:1) that eliminating HSA is not the answer as there are other pathways leading to the formation of 2TN

The idea that a reaction does not take place AT ALL below 71C and that its safe at 70C to do things that cause problems if you did it at 72C is wrong (not always but certainly in this context!). Many modern breweries that have gone to extreme lengths to eliminate both hot side aeration And Cold side aeration, still experience a problem with T2N.

[Jim]

Great beers were made long before brewers understood the science behind brewing, and while, commercially, brewers need to know the ins and outs of the chemistry to achieve consistency and economy, we homebrewers, I feel, don't need to let it spoil our fun.

Just follow good practice without getting too anal about it is my advice.

[AT]

The issue with HSA is that o2 bonds itself on a molecular level to stuff (proteins?) in the wort although this only occurs above 71 deg c. At no point during the mashing and sparging process is the wort subject to this temperatre and aeration, unless you start stiring the mash vigerously whilst sparging.

Sorry coblers! The mash absorbs an incredible amount of oxygen during the 90 minutes or so. IIRC AJ deLange measured the O2 levels in the airspace above a mash and in the mash itself, and was amazed at the rate of O2 uptake. (He reported this to the HBD a good few years ago).

And then you have the fact that Oxidation of chemical compounds can actually take place without the presence of oxygen at all. All that is required is another chemical present in the environment that is willing to donate an electron. Once chemical becomes 'reduced' and the other 'oxidised' These reduction-oxidation reactions take place at all temperatures, of course higher temperatures do cause reactions to take place faster.

Barker (1983, J.Inst. Brewing) showed that there is an enzymatic pathway leading to HSA products, and Nyborg et. el.(1999 J Am. Soc. Brew. Chem. 57:1) showed that in fresh beers Trans-2-nonenal (the major compound identified with HSA) and its precursors are bound up with natural sulphur compounds from yeast metabolism. However, after a lag, which is reduced if thermal or mechanical abuse occurs, the effects of T2N start becoming discernable).

Studies have shown (See Cantrell and Giggs 1996 MBAA Tech. Qr. 33:2, Forster et.al. 1998 MBAA Tech Qr, 35:2, and Lermusuary et.al. 1999 J.Am. Brew. Chem. 57:1) that eliminating HSA is not the answer as there are other pathways leading to the formation of 2TN

The idea that a reaction does not take place AT ALL below 71C and that its safe at 70C to do things that cause problems if you did it at 72C is wrong (not always but certainly in this context!). Many modern breweries that have gone to extreme lengths to eliminate both hot side aeration And Cold side aeration, still experience a problem with T2N.

Sorry what did he say

[vaudy]

I agree with Jim & Daab, even though I don't understand all the ins and outs of the science assoicated with brewing I have been making good beer for the last twenty years.

Good practice and common sense and enjoyment of the end product is what counts.

Cheers
Vaudy

[delboy]

I think the whole homebrewing think is really very forgiving and you can make great beers without getting hung up on the minutae.
Having said that the slightly anal scientist in me loves reading about these things (i supppose it appeals to that side of my personality).
But thats the good thing about homebrewing it appeals at all levels, you can just pitch up and make loopy juice, you can make cracking beers with extract and all malt kits , you can take that extra step go all grain and be the head brewer of your own home brewery, or you can be really nerdy and get immersed in the science even though most probably anything you find out won't make a discernable jot of difference to the final product.
Enjoy

(im currently enjoying the fruits of my first foray into the world of stout, Guinness!? We ain't got no guinness. We don't need no guinness! I don't have to show you any stinking guinness!! (slightly tiddly to say the least )

[Bigster]

First runnings is the first wort to hit the element in Bigster smurfs tenko brewery for the last half dozen brews.

Clarity and flavour even better than before - this may be due to OTT grain bill avoiding over sparging and a devil may care attitude to efficiency but who knows ( and more importantly cares )