Hop Steeping - a debate

[Scooby]

I went the other way. I used a hopback for a couple of years running the wort through a CFC. When I upgraded my brewery
I changed to an IC and steeping at <80c, I found a noticeable increase in flavour and perhaps a little aroma but not much.
I like the sort of beer produced by late additions and more or less follow the method mentioned by trucker5774 and dry hop
in the fv for aroma.

I've done a few brews now doing the same but adding FWH and bittering hops to achieve 70-100IBU in mid 4% beers.
I like them a lot.

[orlando]

I think I might have mentioned this in another thread but it relates to this debate and I recognise some of the points made. Those points came from a YouTube video on the BeerSmith channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qD17ZeTSsE. It was an interview with a hop grower from Wisconsin (James Altwies) he had some very interesting information about hops and the ways in which they are being used in the USA. It was he that suggested the low steep temp, arguing that high temps will drive off the volatile oils that make the aroma in beer. I got the impression he wasn't advocating low temps but suggesting if you are going to steep then lower gets you more bang for your buck (sorry about the Americanism, but appropriate).

One thing that hasn't beeen made clear in the discussion so far is that quantities will of course make a difference but it's a bit like trying to break the sound barrier, you end up putting in more energy to achieve less and less momentum in relation to the amount of energy expended.

If we look at the 3 things hops bring to the brew, leaving aside antiseptic properties, they are bitterness, flavour & aroma. So for me then the debate turns on what hops at what time in order to achieve these 3 different aspects of hop usage. I have tried various things and for me the most effective use of hops for aroma has so far been dry hopping in the FV in the second week of fermentation or once it is below 1.015. The objections to this approach are "grassy" or spicy notes in the finished beer and I have experienced a hint of this with "early" beers that I haven't had the patience to wait long enough to condition & mature properly. Once they have I've been rewarded with a more rounded albeit slightly more muted aroma, but a distinctive one.

The decision to dry hop or not I find is quite simple really, what does the beer smell like when you put a trial jar sample from a hydro reading into a small glass to assess (sniff & drink of course). If I am not where I want to be; dry hop it is.

[Spud395]

For me dry hopping brings something different than steeping.
I cant get the effect I want without dry hopping and the hoppy commercial beers I like are also dry hopped.

[Capn Ahab]

It's common 'mistake' in the US as well then Click and it seems he picked it up from commercial brewers so he can't have been lurking on Jim's.

Ok, that was a fairly interesting article, but you'll note a few things:

Firstly he's talking about commercials steeping in the context of whirlpooling. No doubt this is necessary to ensure a clear run off from the boiler to prevent crud blocking the hop strainer or getting into the FV, rather than a purposeful step to steep the hops in hot wort. Secondly he says they do it for 20-60 mins, so there's some uncertainty there, particularly when he says

every commercial IPA I love is brewed with lots of whirlpool hops

as there is no mention of breweries or length of time in whirlpool, so difficult to draw a conclusion. Thirdly he plumps for a 10 min steep himself in the end.

The most interesting point for me is about diminishing returns in the comments at the bottom, as this tallies up with my experiences.

One thing that hasn't beeen made clear in the discussion so far is that quantities will of course make a difference but it's a bit like trying to break the sound barrier, you end up putting in more energy to achieve less and less momentum in relation to the amount of energy expended.

I think this is probably a really good point. There's no easy way to guage for certain, other than to go on gut instinct maybe.
My experiences of doing an 80 degree steep were the opposite of when I just bang the chiller on. In fact my APA in the National got slammed for having no hop aroma when I'd steeped a shiteload of citra at 80 C for an hour before chilling.

Now when I reach the end of the boil I will first allow the hop bed to settle (5-10 mins) and then chill with the counterflow, which takes well over 10 mins to drain out of the boiler. During all that time hot wort is continually in contact with the flameout addition (if I've used them) and clearly plenty of volatile aroma oils don't evaporate off in this time. This gives great aroma and there is no need for a separate steeping step distinct from the chilling process.

[akka lakka]

thanks for link scooby i made timothy taylor lanlord and put most of hops in at flame out,and enjoyed a lovely hoppy brew.

[Dr. Dextrin]

FWIW I generally use a flavour addition at 15 mins and then aroma hops at flame-out (or leccy-off as it is with me). No cooling. They just steep for 20 mins, starting at 100C, and then I run the wort off (I'm a no-chill brewer, but I guess if you chilled after 20 mins and then ran off the effect would be much the same).

I find this gives plenty of aroma and it's quite easily controllable by varying the final hop addition. Dry hopping gives a different effect IME. I do that sometimes, but only for beers that really demand it.

[Scooby]

Firstly he's talking about commercials steeping in the context of whirlpooling. No doubt this is necessary to ensure a clear run off from the boiler to prevent crud blocking the hop strainer or getting into the FV, rather than a purposeful step to steep the hops in hot wort.

Didn't you read this:

'Pro brewers often add copious amounts of hops during this time' That is the 20-60min whirlpool.

or this:

'First thing I concluded was that the actual act of whirlpooling isn't the important part here. If you have the means to create a whirlpool post boil, giddy up.
It's not the important part though. The important thing is to allow the wort to steep for a period of time after you turn off heat, but before turning on the chiller.'

I don't know about you but in my book what he describes is steeping hops before chilling the wort, and he's not a British homebrewer.

[Capn Ahab]

Firstly he's talking about commercials steeping in the context of whirlpooling. No doubt this is necessary to ensure a clear run off from the boiler to prevent crud blocking the hop strainer or getting into the FV, rather than a purposeful step to steep the hops in hot wort.

Didn't you read this:

'Pro brewers often add copious amounts of hops during this time' That is the 20-60min whirlpool.

Yeah, I did. My point is that these breweries whirlpool after the boil with the primary purpose of clearing the wort; the fact that their flameout hops steep for however long they whirlpool for is a secondary effect.

or this:

'First thing I concluded was that the actual act of whirlpooling isn't the important part here. If you have the means to create a whirlpool post boil, giddy up.
It's not the important part though. The important thing is to allow the wort to steep for a period of time after you turn off heat, but before turning on the chiller.'

That's the writers opinion, and he is a homebrewer, not Vinnie Cilurzo or Greg Koch, say. The advice is also aimed at other homebrewers. Clearly whirlpooling the hops and break are not as important when you are dealing with small volumes of hot wort compared to X hectolitres.

I don't know about you but in my book what he describes is steeping hops before chilling the wort, and he's not a British homebrewer.

Ok, well done. It's not just a British error, American homebrewers are writing about steeping on their blogs. I stand corrected on that. He's missing the point though, which is that hops will always spend some time in hot wort when you're using a counter-flow type chiller, like a plate chiller (can you imagine and large brewery using a giant immersion chiller?!). In fact I would guess that the 20-60 minutes of whirlpooling he writes about includes the time they take to run all the wort off and the duration is in a large part dictated by the volume they have to deal with.

My point is that it is wholly unnecessary to add a separate steeping step to your chilling process. The diminishing returns factor comes into play in a big way if you steep for an hour, say, and then go through your chilling process.

[critch]

As long as your wort is hot, your volatiles are disappearing into the air. Meaning you're losing all the subtle aromas and flavours.

I've never heard of the 80 degree steep method.

It's a common mistake among British homebrewers (don't think it's common anywhere else) perpetuated in no small part by forums such as this one. I'm not saying that it gives no aroma or flavour whatsoever, but that it gives far inferior aroma and flavour than chilling down as fast as possible. Logic and experience bear this out, so why on earth would anyone use this technique?

Also worth thinking about whether any of the best commercials out there do it. I'd say, no.

erm... yes they do. thornbridge, darkstar, outstanding, black isle, marble, pictish all add hops at flame out to name just a few i know of......

dave porter advocates most of the hops at flameout/post boil, as hes responsible for at least 50% of new brewery set ups in the last 5 years thats a lot of new brewers using his recomendations.....as stated a lot of my brews utilise healthy doses of post boil hops, im with dunc, you cant get the same charecteristics using a hopback ,ime flameout hops work better

[critch]

Clearly whirlpooling the hops and break are not as important when you are dealing with small volumes of hot wort compared to X hectolitres.

In fact I would guess that the 20-60 minutes of whirlpooling he writes about includes the time they take to run all the wort off and the duration is in a large part dictated by the volume they have to deal with.

sorry mate totally disagree, seen many breweries that add post boil hops. the 20 - 60 min whirlpool?as well as a steep it cones the hop pellets prior to chill run off........

you cannot utilise a plate chiller without doing this as hop particles are still in suspension in the wort...

[Capn Ahab]

Er, where did I say flameout hops are bad exactly? I use flameout hops, every brewer that makes hoppy beers uses flameout hops, this is not at issue. I'll say it again, shall I? The primary purpose of whirlpooling is to clear crud from the wort; if flameout hops are used (and they are not in every beer) they will spend some time in hot wort. I'm saying that it is a misunderstanding to treat steeping as a separate part of the process. As I said above after and hour steep and then chill you will get diminished returns.

Have a re-read critch, you might find your position is not that far from mine.

[critch]

it takes 2/12 hrs for me to run off my wort, an hours steep recreates this due to the smaller amount of time it takes to run off homebrew amounts, as stated ive seen breweries steep for an hour(outstanding and southport come to mind) especially if theyve got very efficient plate chillers

i steep some of my beers for an hour and theyre some of my hoppiest efforts

[kebabman]

Critch, at what temperature would you advise us to steep at please?

[greenxpaddy]

Yes Orlando I watched with great interest that youtube vid with James Altwies. What a knowledgeable chap he is.

I guess really it all comes down to what flavours you want to bring out due to the relative volatilities of different aroma oils and alpha acids. The lower the steep temp also I reckon the longer you would need to steep for the oils to disperse into the beer.

No right or wrong way, but just different ways to experiment and get different flavours.

Personally I just add at 5 mins or 0 mins and use the time it takes to cool the wort to activate the hop oils. Then dry hop straight away in the fermenter if I'm doing it. I haven't noticed vegetable flavours that they refer to either in a very long dry hop nor in a long boil of 90 mins. I wouldn't mind experimenting with a later steep, but I think I would have to use a lot more hops perhaps to get the same hit of hoppiness with albeit a different aroma balance.

For me its much easier to boil your hop bag in the wort on the brew day rather than have to sterilise it later. I would have thought the alcohol level in the beer and high CO2 would practically stop the action of vegetable degradation. See what happens if you keep fruit in a CO2 chamber. Suppose there is one way to find out. Stick an apple in a jar of beer and see how long it is before it goes off.

[orlando]

I wouldn't mind experimenting with a later steep, but I think I would have to use a lot more hops perhaps to get the same hit of hoppiness with albeit a different aroma balance.

Interesting point. Assuming you have used a lot less during the boil?

For me I thought he was making a distinction between bittering (is that what you mean by hoppiness?) flavour (or that?) and aroma (or that?) on the basis that what you want to achieve from these 3 will determine what & when you add your hops and in particular how much, then giving the example of hop aroma, which he felt was best achieved at lower temps or by dry hopping.