Flavour "references" ?
Flavour "references" ?
Hi folks,
One thing that's got me is how I can properly grasp the various flavour components that homebrewers often use to describe the taste of a particular beer. An example might be the 'ester' or 'diacetyl' terms that are often banded about.. For me, I just don't think wordy descriptions such as 'fruity' or 'popcorn' give enough context.
So, I wonder whether anyone has come across (or can produce!) a list of commercially available beers (in the UK) which are good examples of specific flavour profiles?
I think this would really help me as a fairly new AG brewer, where it's no longer good enough to know which beers I like, but *why* I like them. Give me two ales that are similar besides one being estery and one not, and I reckon I'd get it pretty quickly..
Does anyone agree? Can anyone assist?
Cheers!
One thing that's got me is how I can properly grasp the various flavour components that homebrewers often use to describe the taste of a particular beer. An example might be the 'ester' or 'diacetyl' terms that are often banded about.. For me, I just don't think wordy descriptions such as 'fruity' or 'popcorn' give enough context.
So, I wonder whether anyone has come across (or can produce!) a list of commercially available beers (in the UK) which are good examples of specific flavour profiles?
I think this would really help me as a fairly new AG brewer, where it's no longer good enough to know which beers I like, but *why* I like them. Give me two ales that are similar besides one being estery and one not, and I reckon I'd get it pretty quickly..
Does anyone agree? Can anyone assist?
Cheers!
Re: Flavour "references" ?
I know what you mean, as I'm not particularly good at describing flavours either.
I think the only way to learn is to go on a proper tasting course - I know various organisations run these - aspiring beer judges are probably queuing up for them. I don't believe it's the kind of thing you can teach yourself.
Not sure what the cost is, though.
I think the only way to learn is to go on a proper tasting course - I know various organisations run these - aspiring beer judges are probably queuing up for them. I don't believe it's the kind of thing you can teach yourself.
Not sure what the cost is, though.
- Befuddler
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2472
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:06 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Re: Flavour "references" ?
You'll definitely know diacetyl when you taste it in excess. It's a distinct cloying butterscotch flavour that makes a beer hard to drink. I can't give an example because when it reaches the level where you'd pick it out, it's a major flaw! It can be a background note in some styles and helps to round out the flavour, but generally if it jumps out at you, the beer shouldn't be on sale.
Esters usually have very distinctive fruit flavours and aromas (many are used as flavourings in food). There's an ester that smells like apples, one for raspberries, pineapple, etc. so when people say they're fruity, that really is the best description. A specific ester would very rarely if ever appear on its own in a beer so you may struggle to pick them out individually. Esters can come from fermentation by-products or hop oils, but generally when homebrewers talk about an "estery" beer, they're on about the yeasty ones. These are generally most apparent in lightly hopped beers fermented with English ale strains.
Phenols are pronounced in Belgian beers more than any others.. Think cloves, spices, medicinal notes etc. Belgians also show strong ester characteristics as well.
It's very hard to give commercial examples that would be similar but for the esters... They would be totally different beers even if the base recipe was similar, and that's almost impossible to pick out. I reckon your best bet might be to brew a very simple recipe with just a small amount of bittering hops, then split it into 4 fermenters and chuck 4 different yeasts at it. WLP001 - Very clean, hardly any esters, WLP002 - Very estery English strain, WLP500 - Classic Belgian flavours, estery and phenolic, WLP300 - German hefeweizen, strong banana ester and clovey phenolics.
Edit: just remembered.... If you don't want to brew it yourself, Brewdog actually did something very similar called "unleash the yeast". They used an Pilsner yeast in place of the English one and their base recipe is quite hoppy, but the idea is the same:
http://www.masterofmalt.com/beer/brewdo ... east-beer/
Get yourself a box of that and see if you can pick out the flavours!
Also, if you have a Brewdog bar nearby, they do something called "beer school" where they crack open some interesting boozes and talk you through the flavours. I've never done one so I can't speak for the quality, but it might be worth a go.
Esters usually have very distinctive fruit flavours and aromas (many are used as flavourings in food). There's an ester that smells like apples, one for raspberries, pineapple, etc. so when people say they're fruity, that really is the best description. A specific ester would very rarely if ever appear on its own in a beer so you may struggle to pick them out individually. Esters can come from fermentation by-products or hop oils, but generally when homebrewers talk about an "estery" beer, they're on about the yeasty ones. These are generally most apparent in lightly hopped beers fermented with English ale strains.
Phenols are pronounced in Belgian beers more than any others.. Think cloves, spices, medicinal notes etc. Belgians also show strong ester characteristics as well.
It's very hard to give commercial examples that would be similar but for the esters... They would be totally different beers even if the base recipe was similar, and that's almost impossible to pick out. I reckon your best bet might be to brew a very simple recipe with just a small amount of bittering hops, then split it into 4 fermenters and chuck 4 different yeasts at it. WLP001 - Very clean, hardly any esters, WLP002 - Very estery English strain, WLP500 - Classic Belgian flavours, estery and phenolic, WLP300 - German hefeweizen, strong banana ester and clovey phenolics.
Edit: just remembered.... If you don't want to brew it yourself, Brewdog actually did something very similar called "unleash the yeast". They used an Pilsner yeast in place of the English one and their base recipe is quite hoppy, but the idea is the same:
http://www.masterofmalt.com/beer/brewdo ... east-beer/
Get yourself a box of that and see if you can pick out the flavours!
Also, if you have a Brewdog bar nearby, they do something called "beer school" where they crack open some interesting boozes and talk you through the flavours. I've never done one so I can't speak for the quality, but it might be worth a go.
Last edited by Befuddler on Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There are no strong beers, only weak men"
Re: Flavour "references" ?
Bottled Fullers ESB and Pilsner Urquell both have noticeable diacetyl in the aroma, particularly ESB. I think they must both be pasteurised before the yeast cleans it all up and bottled bright with added co2 rather than bottle conditioned. Obviously it's intentional in these beers and nothing like undrinkable butter bombs, but they can give you a clue.
DMS (dimethyl sulphide) can easily be recognised by dumping some tinned sweetcorn in a pan of overcooked broccoli.
Acetaldehyde smells of green apples.
Oxidised beer smells and tastes of wet cardboard.
With flaws the best thing to do is meet other homebrewers and share beers and discuss aromas and flavours. Fermentation and handling flaws are common enough (you often find more than one in a beer - natch) and the trick is to id them and work out how to avoid them.
As regards esters and phenols sharing and discussing beer also works, or you could try looking up youtube or ratebeer reviews while you try some interesting commercial beers and see if you can pick out flavours and aromas.
Basically learning to pick them out is an empirical process that only comes with practice and drinking a diverse range of beer. What a massive pain, eh?!
DMS (dimethyl sulphide) can easily be recognised by dumping some tinned sweetcorn in a pan of overcooked broccoli.
Acetaldehyde smells of green apples.
Oxidised beer smells and tastes of wet cardboard.
With flaws the best thing to do is meet other homebrewers and share beers and discuss aromas and flavours. Fermentation and handling flaws are common enough (you often find more than one in a beer - natch) and the trick is to id them and work out how to avoid them.
As regards esters and phenols sharing and discussing beer also works, or you could try looking up youtube or ratebeer reviews while you try some interesting commercial beers and see if you can pick out flavours and aromas.
Basically learning to pick them out is an empirical process that only comes with practice and drinking a diverse range of beer. What a massive pain, eh?!
- Befuddler
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2472
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:06 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Re: Flavour
Remembering to take everything on ratebeer with an entire ladle full of himalayan pink salt. There are people on that site who would claim to taste smoked foie gras in a can of Carling if you didn't tell them what it was first.Capn Ahab wrote: you could try looking up youtube or ratebeer reviews while you try some interesting commercial beers and see if you can pick out flavours and aromas.
"There are no strong beers, only weak men"
Re: Flavour "references" ?
With reference to sharing beer with other brewers, get talking about it in advance and actively encourage people to put forward the stuff with faults that would ordinarily leave it marked 'personal consumption when desperate' or 'drain'. I probably wouldn't put forward stuff with faults unless it was for that specific reason..
- scuppeteer
- Under the Table
- Posts: 1512
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:32 pm
- Location: Brenchley, Kent (Birthplace of Fuggles... or is it?)
Re: Flavour "references" ?
One of the biggest hurdles you face is personal taste. You may really like a beer whilst your best mate may not. Some find certain characteristics, such as esters, diacetyl and phenols quite palatable whereas you may not. A good example is a smoked beer, I can't stand them but many find them exquisite.
If your real question is how do I tell if my homebrew isn't quite right then Befuddler has given some of the top examples and what to look out for. I brewed a smash a while ago and used some old pellets to dry hop with. After a week conditioning I could tell that the beer had been badly oxidised due to the pellets, you shouldn't taste cardboard in beer and the whole lot went down the drain.
There are many elements that will affect the quality of the beer you produce, esters are produced by fermentation. Some will be more noticeable than others and the difference in fermentation temperature and time taken will accentuate this flavour. If you ferment at too higher temp the yeast will rapidly eat through the sugars and produce the esters, resulting in a potentially higher ABV and ultimately thinner beer than required. But it will still taste yeasty which in certain styles is undesirable. A good example of a yeast forward beer is a Saison, this beer is all about the yeast, but it can be balanced (a bit) by throwing a load of hops at it, but then purists would say it's not true to style. But if you like it then what do they know?
One of the best tasting sessions I did was with my local Camra branch, it didn't cost very much (only the cost of a couple of pints and some nibbles) but I learnt so much. We had 2 pints in 3 hours but the beers we tried really got a thorough going over. The only disappointment was one of the members was a heavy smoker and his senses were a bit buggered so he gave up half way through.
There is no right or wrong to flavours and aromas you can detect, such as citrus, strawberry, chocolate, malts etc. But as you gain more experience you will learn to notice if something doesn't taste quite as it should.
If your real question is how do I tell if my homebrew isn't quite right then Befuddler has given some of the top examples and what to look out for. I brewed a smash a while ago and used some old pellets to dry hop with. After a week conditioning I could tell that the beer had been badly oxidised due to the pellets, you shouldn't taste cardboard in beer and the whole lot went down the drain.
There are many elements that will affect the quality of the beer you produce, esters are produced by fermentation. Some will be more noticeable than others and the difference in fermentation temperature and time taken will accentuate this flavour. If you ferment at too higher temp the yeast will rapidly eat through the sugars and produce the esters, resulting in a potentially higher ABV and ultimately thinner beer than required. But it will still taste yeasty which in certain styles is undesirable. A good example of a yeast forward beer is a Saison, this beer is all about the yeast, but it can be balanced (a bit) by throwing a load of hops at it, but then purists would say it's not true to style. But if you like it then what do they know?
One of the best tasting sessions I did was with my local Camra branch, it didn't cost very much (only the cost of a couple of pints and some nibbles) but I learnt so much. We had 2 pints in 3 hours but the beers we tried really got a thorough going over. The only disappointment was one of the members was a heavy smoker and his senses were a bit buggered so he gave up half way through.
There is no right or wrong to flavours and aromas you can detect, such as citrus, strawberry, chocolate, malts etc. But as you gain more experience you will learn to notice if something doesn't taste quite as it should.
Dave Berry
Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!
Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC
Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!
Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC
Re: Flavour "references" ?
Thanks for all the helpful responses everyone.
scuppeteer: I'm not really talking about off flavours. I mean the good ones! I'd like to be able to imagine a particular flavour component and know where it comes from and how to get it, hence removing some of the guesswork when designing a new recipe.
Befuddler: Many thanks for your link to brewdog; I didn't know about this! I certainly plan to do similar 'scientific' comparisons of my own one day, but for the time being I reckon I should concentrate on getting things consistent
A tasting course would be perfect. I'l keep my eyes peeled..
scuppeteer: I'm not really talking about off flavours. I mean the good ones! I'd like to be able to imagine a particular flavour component and know where it comes from and how to get it, hence removing some of the guesswork when designing a new recipe.
Befuddler: Many thanks for your link to brewdog; I didn't know about this! I certainly plan to do similar 'scientific' comparisons of my own one day, but for the time being I reckon I should concentrate on getting things consistent
A tasting course would be perfect. I'l keep my eyes peeled..
- MarkA
- Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
- Posts: 632
- Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
- Location: Aberdeenshire
Re: Flavour "references" ?
It might be useful for you to look at a 'beer flavour wheel' as they can help with flavour descriptions, try Google.
Re: Flavour "references" ?
There's a kit you can buy that contains all the flavours that are important in beer. It is very expensive, although it might be a good thing for the Christmas list. http://www.flavoractiv.com/drinks/beers/enthusiast-kit/
Drinking: AG#7 Final Sprint (APA), AG#8 Buckwheat Brett (Saison - Saison/Brett), AG#9 Helles Meister
Conditioning: -
Fermenting: Selection Pinot Grigio
Planning: Orange Blossom Mead, Mexican Honey Mead, Chocolate Stout
Conditioning: -
Fermenting: Selection Pinot Grigio
Planning: Orange Blossom Mead, Mexican Honey Mead, Chocolate Stout
Re: Flavour "references" ?
This is an interesting post about beer and other flavour wheels: http://www.pencilandspoon.com/2013/01/a ... wheel.html