Souring for the 'tang'

[Niall K]

I have noticed a fair few recipes for Guinness Draught clone requires the souring of about 2 bottles of stout, by leaving it in a bowl for about 1 week and then freezing it. While brewing, you thaw the sour stout and heat it to 82 - 90 Deg C for 20 minutes. At the end of the wort boil you add the sour stout. Has anybody tried this and does it work to replicate a close Guinness Draught Clone?

Niall

[eskimobob]

Nah - too much faffing for me - besides, I am quite happy with my EB Stout taste.

I have heard of simpler methods where you just pour a couple of bottles into a jug and leave at room temp to stand for a couple of days but never tried it.

[oblivious]

what about adding some acid malt

[oblivious]

what about adding some acid malt

or lactic acid?

Same thing i think

[Aleman]

Actually I would think that plain old vinegar would be the better option.

Having been in the situation of having a 'house' infection there is no way you want to think about allowing any deliberate infection anyway near your brewery.

[oblivious]

Acetic acid is quite pungent aroma and not the acid associated with positive sourness in beer

[Aleman]

It does depend on what quantity you are talking about, as the sourness that is 'traditionally' associated with stouts comes from acetobacter, not lactobacter

[Aleman]

Wasn't someone on the Digest saying that vinegar can infect beer as it hasn't been pasturised or something along those lines ?

I recall something along those lines as well, which is probably why I'd be using something like Distilled vinegar.

Quantities should be around 5ml / gallon IIRC, although I'd do a taste trial with a much smaller sample gradually building it up to find what level it becomes objectionable at. And don't forget to compare it with an un soured beer as you go along

[Aleman]

Hmmm, Interesting,

There is always pastuerisation, with a dilute solution.

And the other thing to remember is that Acetobacter requires Oxygen, in a keg/bottle situation it is unlikely to be able to reproduce. So even if there was a bacterial count, and it was viable, its not likely to get any worse. Especially with the volumes that we are talking about

Just keep anything that come into contact with the sour beer, for sour beer.

[mysterio]

I would just brew a good stout recipe and see how you like it. If you want a 'tang' add the lactic afterwards.

[delboy]

Wasn't someone on the Digest saying that vinegar can infect beer as it hasn't been pasturised or something along those lines ?

Found it...

"Distilled" white vinegar means the vinegar is concentrated (see the
definition of 'distilled'). It does NOT mean that the vinegar passed
through a reflux still. "Distilled vinegar" may include viable
aceobacteria. treat it accordingly.

Maybe even distilled vinegar isn't such a good idea (assuming BillV's post is correct).

Distilled vinegar is made from distilled alcohol which is then diluted and fermented with acetobacter iirc.
AFAIK vinegars like sarsons etc are pasteurised and then put into hot sterile bottles otherwise it can from a kind of slime know as mother see piccy below.

[David Edge]

Back to the question, does anyone perceive an acetic tang in draught Guinness these days? A trip to Dublin found various samples of rather bland quality. A trip to a brewing club meeting in Tamworth found half a dozen people who can brew a better dry stout than the heirs of Arthur Guinness.

I'd suggest honing your technique until you can make a stout to die for. You can then start pondering souring and the easiest way of doing that is to get a pipette and and small amounts of vinegar and lactic acid to the glass.

Easy and cheap, no risk of infection and you'll quickly find out what you like.

[Aleman]

Well Said David

I was wondering if you would chip in on this one

[David Edge]

Unmasked! I was racking my brains over the identity of a TJB who would have been at the pH meter meeting! Tony Badger of Durden Park seemed unlikely.

[delboy]

Back to the question, does anyone perceive an acetic tang in draught Guinness these days? A trip to Dublin found various samples of rather bland quality. A trip to a brewing club meeting in Tamworth found half a dozen people who can brew a better dry stout than the heirs of Arthur Guinness.

I'd suggest honing your technique until you can make a stout to die for. You can then start pondering souring and the easiest way of doing that is to get a pipette and and small amounts of vinegar and lactic acid to the glass.

Easy and cheap, no risk of infection and you'll quickly find out what you like.

Thats a good description of guinness its bland all right and for my palate it tastes the same in belfast, dublin, the continent, the states, BLAND.

I feel sorry for people who come to dublin thinking they are at the 'mecca' of draught guiness and are expecting this fantastic pint, they won't get it (unless they are deluding themselves).
It'd be like going to st louis (or where ever the main Anheuser-Busch factory is) and expecting to get a sublime pint of bud

Back to the souring, a few months ago after reading the section in grahams book about stouts and porters, i experimented just as David suggests using a small syringe to measure the additions.

The results are in and for my palate at least additions of vinegar to a stout produce something that i really don't want to drink.