Persistent infection nightmare

[Davidman]

Ok. Going to be a long one this. I have been getting what I assume to be some kind of lacto infection persistently for a year now, and I can't get rid. It's driving me mental and spoiling some excellent beers.

My sanitation is never sloppy, and I will explain my processes later. I am 99.999999999% certain I know where this infection came from:

A starter that took 3 days to take off. I was going to brew a tripel, and I brewed a starter that showed no sign of activity whatsoever fora few days. So in the meantime I brewed up another beer. Anyway, I left the starter for a few days and it eventually took off day three. I let it ferment, crash cooled and decanted into a sterilised bottle (filled with starsan solution), which I kept in the fridge for a few days, then brewed up the tripel. I hadn't noticed any off flavours or smells in the tripel or starter, but it was my first time using 3787, so even if I had I might have just put it down to a bit of Belgian funk.

Anyway, after this beer I went on a bit of a brewing frenzy over spring/summer in anticipation of a brewing hiatus due to a new sleep/time depriving addition to the family.

I must have brewed about 8 beers in that period, and as they were all brewed quite close together I didn't notice anything was wrong until second to last; a stout that wasn't quite right (overly tart) and seemed to have developed a pelicle. Then the alarm bells started to ring!

None of my recently brewed beers seemed to be ageing very well - they would taste incredible after carbing at about 2 weeks, but then seemed to deteriorate somewhat. There was something present in every one that I couldn't put my finger on.

On closer inspection, every batch post the dodgy starter tripel had a pelicle to varying degrees, and some pretty heavy yeast deposits clinging to the sides and the necks of the bottles.

All the beers That I still had left pre tripel, including the black IPA that I brewed in between the dodgy starter and the tripel did not have a pelicle, and all seemed pretty good.

This leads me to believe the infection started in my tripel (fermented in a glass carbon) and was spread into my bottling line.

Also, none of my beers seemed to develop anything funky or strange during fermentation (both carboy and plastic bucket fermented beers - anyway, my bucket should have been fine as the tripel never touched it).

I then had a 5 month hiatus due to the new sleep depriver. In which time I replaced all my plastic (bottling bucket, autosiphon, fermenter, bottling wand).

Fast forward to this feb. I brewed my first beer since the new depriver; a ~6% porter using chocolate malt for the bulk of the dark grains. Primary for about a month, then bottled. It was amazing. Smelled like chocolate more so than any beer I have ever brewed and tasted spit on. Balanced, and the 6% was hidden very well. This was for the first 3 weeks. Then I noticed the tang. I couldn't be sure at this point though.

I brewed another. This time a cracking APA. Again, initially it was by far the best APA I had brewed. Very hoppy, backed up with a nice hint of caramel. But again. About 3 weeks in it started to taste a bit... Less good.

On inspection of the bottles, they all had at least a slight pelicle again, and the yeast deposits in the side.

At this point I was at a complete and utter [censored] loss as to how to stop this, and where it was coming from. Until u realised that although I had replaced all my plastic, I didn't replace my bottling tree. Cod this be harbouring the infection?

So. I boiled the fecker. For a good 20 minutes, and also gave it a good starsan wipe, and replaced my bottling wand before bottling my last beer (a Belgian wit).

Surely this should nail the little bastards.

Anyway. Said beer has been in the bottle about a week now, and I fear I still haven't killed it. Been in the bottle about a week, but it doesn't look good (although it could be bottle krausen at this stage). Tastes ok, but all of them have early on, and in a wit the supposed lacto would not be entirely out of place.

Anyway. My bottling process is:

Clean every bottle after or shortly after use with a bleach/water solution, rinse and store.

Day before bottling day - spray or wipe my bottling tree, rinse every bottle again a couple of times and store upside down on bottling tree.

Bottling day - rinse my bottling bucket, autosiphon, bottling wand. Then fill my bottling bucket with about 4litres of starsan solution. Shake, make sure all surface are well contacted. Dunk in my autosiphon, put the tube inside and pump through. I also spray all the surfaces as well.
I then spray the tap, and empty the bucket through the bottling wand, back into the solution bottle.

Meanwhile, boil some water for a good ten minutes, spray pan. Boil sugar with water for 5-10, lid on. Cool for a bit with lid over. Pour into bottling bucket.

I then use my starsan spray thing (avinator???) to "sterilise" each bottle and store on tree.

Bottle through wand. And spray/submerge all caps in starsan prior to capping.



Anyway. Any input is much appreciated. I'm at my wits end with this. Gutted, and all out of ideas.

[sbond10]

Before some one smarter comes along what about the bottles and the capper ?

[MarkO'B]

I think bottles are covered, but the caps and capper is a good shout.

Mine get a good sterilisation prior to capping, its the only thing you haven't mentioned.

[Davidman]

Before some one smarter comes along what about the bottles and the capper ?

My bottles get bleached and rinsed after use, and sterilised when I bottle. Not sure how the paper would be a culprit. I use a two armed thingy (don't know the technical term), but obviously it never comes into contact with the beer or any surface which comes into contact with the beer.

[Davidman]

I think bottles are covered, but the caps and capper is a good shout.

Mine get a good sterilisation prior to capping, its the only thing you haven't mentioned.

Caps get sterilised prior to capping. I give the avoid spray and or submerge in starsan.

[sbond10]

Fermenting fridge then

[Jocky]

What are you actually cleaning your equipment with, chemicals wise?

It may be time to use something new.

[Davidman]

What are you actually cleaning your equipment with, chemicals wise?

It may be time to use something new.

I clean after use with (thin) bleach and water. Soak and rinse. I sanitise with starsan.

[Piscator]

Hi Davidman, I feel your pain - to get to the bottom of this problem you obviously need to work through the things in your process that are common to each brew. By the sound of it you have pretty much replaced all your FV's.

This leads me to wonder:
What type of tap do you have on your boiler?
How do you clean it?
Can you strip it?
How do you sterilise it prior to running off into the FV?

Boiler taps are a bit of a hobby horse of mine, but are one area consistently overlooked by home brewers trying to trace the source of infection. Since every batch passes through the boiler tap on the way to the FV an issue here is a good fit for your problem.

Cheers
Steve

[Piscator]

I clean after use with (thin) bleach and water. Soak and rinse. I sanitise with starsan.

Bleach is not a "cleaner", you really need to use something with some detergent properties that will lift physical soiling and prevent it being re-deposited then follow this with a sanitiser like the diluted thin bleach or starsan that you have. If there are deposits of soiling left somewhere in your kit it has a shielding effect and protects any nasties underneath it from the effects of the sanitiser.

Cheers
Steve

[Davidman]

Hi Davidman, I feel your pain - to get to the bottom of this problem you obviously need to work through the things in your process that are common to each brew. By the sound of it you have pretty much replaced all your FV's.

This leads me to wonder:
What type of tap do you have on your boiler?
How do you clean it?
Can you strip it?
How do you sterilise it prior to running off into the FV?

Boiler taps are a bit of a hobby horse of mine, but are one area consistently overlooked by home brewers trying to trace the source of infection. Since every batch passes through the boiler tap on the way to the FV an issue here is a good fit for your problem.

Cheers
Steve

I have considered the tap as a possible culprit. I have a ball valve tap attached to a bendy copper tube with holes drilled in the bottom as a hop filter. I usually leave it open after use and rinse hot water through for quite a while. I periodically bleach the whole thing as well. I'm going to dismantle the whole thing and boil it all to fook.

On brew day about ten minutes from the end of the boil I open it up and run the boiling wort into a jug a handful of times and pour back in.

The end of the tap is just copper tubing. I have a small length of copper tubing and an elbow which I attach to create a bit of a siphon effect. I sanitise this by submerging in starsan.

Maybe I need to reevaluate everything I do here.

[Davidman]

I clean after use with (thin) bleach and water. Soak and rinse. I sanitise with starsan.

Bleach is not a "cleaner", you really need to use something with some detergent properties that will lift physical soiling and prevent it being re-deposited then follow this with a sanitiser like the diluted thin bleach or starsan that you have. If there are deposits of soiling left somewhere in your kit it has a shielding effect and protects any nasties underneath it from the effects of the sanitiser.

Cheers
Steve

I always thought bleach was a cleaner? Seems to lift any deposits in my fermenters and bottles.

What else would you suggest?

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

I had persistent lacto problems that have ruined 4 beers now.

I put the problem down to taking samples from the FV taps. I also angled the taps.

The combination means that air can get into the FV sucking up bacteria in the tap in the beer residue from the last sample.

[Piscator]

I always thought bleach was a cleaner? Seems to lift any deposits in my fermenters and bottles.

What else would you suggest?

Bleach is an oxidising agent and not intended for cleaning in applications like this - detergents make use of surfactant(s) to reduce the surface tension and increase the "wetting" power of the cleaning solution... basically makes it easier to lift and hold the deposits so they can be rinsed away. Bleach is a great sanitiser as it is a powerful oxidiser but is a poor "cleaner".

Any of the cleaning agents sold by home brew suppliers will be better for the job and some like VWP/Malt Miller/Worcester Hop Shop combine detergent with chlorine bleach for a double cleaning/sanitising effect.

Cheers
Steve

[Piscator]

I have considered the tap as a possible culprit. I have a ball valve tap attached to a bendy copper tube with holes drilled in the bottom as a hop filter. I usually leave it open after use and rinse hot water through for quite a while. I periodically bleach the whole thing as well. I'm going to dismantle the whole thing and boil it all to fook.

On brew day about ten minutes from the end of the boil I open it up and run the boiling wort into a jug a handful of times and pour back in.

The end of the tap is just copper tubing. I have a small length of copper tubing and an elbow which I attach to create a bit of a siphon effect. I sanitise this by submerging in starsan.

Maybe I need to reevaluate everything I do here.

Stripping the tap would be a VERY sensible move - ball valves are inherently un-hygienic and there are lots of places around the ball seals and spigot for harbourage and biofilm build up. You're doing the right thing by sending a few jugfuls of hot wort through before end of boil, but it is possible that if there is enough build up/biofilm in the seals/spigot that the heat is not quite enough.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Cheers
Steve