Reverse chiller
Reverse chiller
Hi Guys
I am planning to build a chiller from a coil of 1/4 or 1/2 inch copper pipe but instead of running water through the pipe, I want to install the pipe in a container filled with cold water/ice and run the wort through the pipe instead. In this way you will have the minimum of water wasted. I was just wondering why nobody else seem to be doing this. Daft idea?
I am planning to build a chiller from a coil of 1/4 or 1/2 inch copper pipe but instead of running water through the pipe, I want to install the pipe in a container filled with cold water/ice and run the wort through the pipe instead. In this way you will have the minimum of water wasted. I was just wondering why nobody else seem to be doing this. Daft idea?
Re: Reverse chiller
Potentially difficult to sanitise the inside of the coil. There are plenty of people who use a standard immersion coil and pump iced water from a bucket. Then you sanitise cool in the boil and none of the tubing and pump needs sanitised. Furthermore if you get a leak you only waste water instead of precious wort
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Re: Reverse chiller
Except me! But my cold water reservoir is the sink - my boiler stands atop the draining board and my 3m long, 8mm dia copper coil sits in the sink. It's attached to the boiler tap by a short plastic tube and the opening of the coil hangs over the waiting FV. Takes about forty minutes to empty the boiler, but the wort itself is cooled from over 80c to whatever the temp of the tap water in mere seconds as it passes through. The wort leaves the boiler clear, but exits the tube cloudy cos of the precipitation of protein stuff during the few moments it's in the tube. If allowed, all this stuff settles out in the FV after an hour or so. I used to run the clear stuff off into another FV but don't bother these days. Apparently it makes great yeast food and I've found clarity and quality are,if anything,better than removing the 'break gunk'. It's a balancing act of leaving the cold tap running whilst setting the sink's plug slightly askew so water leaves the sink at the same rate it enters. Works an absolute treat, though I've forgotten how long I've been meaning to increase the coil tubing diameter from 8mm to 10mm which would increase the flow rate considerably.braailus wrote:I was just wondering why nobody else seem to be doing this.
I described this set-up on here a few years back and some members were (quite rightly) concerned with cleanliness of the copper tube. Immediately before and after each use I attach a bit of plastic tube and a funnel to it, then run a kettle full of boiling water through. Immediately after running boiling water through and putting away, I shove a little blu-tack in each end to keep out bugs and germs. In five years and god knows how many brews I've had nil problems. Dunno how much water you'll save if that's your aim, but running the tap at a trickle is enough to maintain a cold temp in the sink. Otherwise, go for it!
Re: Reverse chiller
Hi braailus
I’m glad that Capped has had success with his method, but if your intention is to save water, I doubt it will.
As you have to keep replenishing slowly with cold water or more ice or your container will start to warm up.
Many brewers choose a simpler system.
Either a counter flow, immersion or plate chiller.
I use an immersion chiller. It uses about 60l to cool 30l or wort down to below 30c in about 20 mins.
It doesn't waste water; in fact it gives me hot water to use to clean the kit.
And 60L of water costs virtually nothing.
Norm
I’m glad that Capped has had success with his method, but if your intention is to save water, I doubt it will.
As you have to keep replenishing slowly with cold water or more ice or your container will start to warm up.
Many brewers choose a simpler system.
Either a counter flow, immersion or plate chiller.
I use an immersion chiller. It uses about 60l to cool 30l or wort down to below 30c in about 20 mins.
It doesn't waste water; in fact it gives me hot water to use to clean the kit.
And 60L of water costs virtually nothing.
Norm
The Doghouse Brewery (UK)
Re: Reverse chiller
Hi Guys
Thanks for the replies. Let me explain my reasoning a bit more. In my view, if you want to use an immersion chiller, the thicker the pipe and the more water you run through it the more efficient the system will be (more surface area to get in contact with the wort and the more water to cool down). If you use a 3/4 inch pipe with the tap open to full for a couple of hours that would equate to a lot of water. In addition, every time you place the chiller in the wort you could introduce all kinds of nasties to the brew. If however you do it the other way around, it does not matter what is in the container with the coolant as the wort never gets in contact with the coolant and the thinner the chiller pipe, the longer the wort is exposed to the cold area, the more efficient the system. I understand that it could be difficult to clean the inside of the pipe but as Capped stated, it is doable. It would be great to hear some more views as I am about to take the plunge and build my chiller soon. I am trying to make the best system I can within my resources and these 2 options are very similar from a build point of view. Better safe that sorry so I would rather learn from the experienced members before committing.
I appreciate your input and advice gentlemen.
Braailus
Thanks for the replies. Let me explain my reasoning a bit more. In my view, if you want to use an immersion chiller, the thicker the pipe and the more water you run through it the more efficient the system will be (more surface area to get in contact with the wort and the more water to cool down). If you use a 3/4 inch pipe with the tap open to full for a couple of hours that would equate to a lot of water. In addition, every time you place the chiller in the wort you could introduce all kinds of nasties to the brew. If however you do it the other way around, it does not matter what is in the container with the coolant as the wort never gets in contact with the coolant and the thinner the chiller pipe, the longer the wort is exposed to the cold area, the more efficient the system. I understand that it could be difficult to clean the inside of the pipe but as Capped stated, it is doable. It would be great to hear some more views as I am about to take the plunge and build my chiller soon. I am trying to make the best system I can within my resources and these 2 options are very similar from a build point of view. Better safe that sorry so I would rather learn from the experienced members before committing.
I appreciate your input and advice gentlemen.
Braailus
Re: Reverse chiller
By the way, it may sound strange that I am concerned about a couple of hundred (or thousand) litres of water but we have water restrictions in place. In some areas the water supply is even cut off for certain hours of the day. This of course goes on top of our load shedding where our electricity supply is disconnected between 2 and 4 hours a day. Welcome to Africa
Re: Reverse chiller
[quote="Normski"]Hi braailus
I’m glad that Capped has had success with his method, but if your intention is to save water, I doubt it will.
As you have to keep replenishing slowly with cold water or more ice or your container will start to warm up.
Many brewers choose a simpler system.
Either a counter flow, immersion or plate chiller.
I use an immersion chiller. It uses about 60l to cool 30l or wort down to below 30c in about 20 mins.
It doesn't waste water; in fact it gives me hot water to use to clean the kit.
And 60L of water costs virtually nothing.
Norm[/quote]
Could you give me some more info on your chiller please. What diameter pipe do you use? I envisaged the tap running for a couple of hours and that would certainly equate to more than 60l. Maybe I have the wrong idea about the rate of flow.
I’m glad that Capped has had success with his method, but if your intention is to save water, I doubt it will.
As you have to keep replenishing slowly with cold water or more ice or your container will start to warm up.
Many brewers choose a simpler system.
Either a counter flow, immersion or plate chiller.
I use an immersion chiller. It uses about 60l to cool 30l or wort down to below 30c in about 20 mins.
It doesn't waste water; in fact it gives me hot water to use to clean the kit.
And 60L of water costs virtually nothing.
Norm[/quote]
Could you give me some more info on your chiller please. What diameter pipe do you use? I envisaged the tap running for a couple of hours and that would certainly equate to more than 60l. Maybe I have the wrong idea about the rate of flow.
Re: Reverse chiller
Hi again
I have been looking for copper piping and was wondering if there is any specific type of copper pipe to be used when making the chiller coil? I have read that people make use of air-conditioning piping but I wonder if it is safe to use in this application. I am sure there must be a whole range of copper piping made by different suppliers so it would be nice to know what to ask for.
Thanks
I have been looking for copper piping and was wondering if there is any specific type of copper pipe to be used when making the chiller coil? I have read that people make use of air-conditioning piping but I wonder if it is safe to use in this application. I am sure there must be a whole range of copper piping made by different suppliers so it would be nice to know what to ask for.
Thanks
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- Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
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Re: Reverse chiller
Any copper pipe will do, just make sure it's clean before use, there'll likely be traces of oil and other manufacturing grot left over when you buy it so if your plan is to run the wort through the tubing I'd run lots of hot soapy water through it for a good while, then sterilising solution of some sort immediately prior to use.
Maybe bring water to the boil in the hlt, add detergent then run it through the tube as an initial clean?
Maybe bring water to the boil in the hlt, add detergent then run it through the tube as an initial clean?
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Re: Reverse chiller
I got mine from B&Q. Being a bit of a skinflint I got 8mm bore - it works well but really should have got 10mm. Flow rate would be considerably improved and the damn thing will last forever. The way to form the coil by the way, is to work it around a demijohn...braailus wrote:
I have been looking for copper piping and was wondering if there is any specific type of copper pipe to be used when making the chiller coil?
Re: Reverse chiller
Thanks guys, I will look around locally. I presume that the pipe is intended for the aircon industy. I think the pipes used in plumbing will kink if you try and bend it.
I am in Durban South Africa
I am in Durban South Africa
Re: Reverse chiller
Regarding kinking of the pipe during bending, for a given diameter of chiller coil, I found that smaller pipe is easier to bend and less likely to kink. Bending around a demijohn is a good idea for getting a suitable diameter of coil.
I've seen suggestions for avoiding kinking by filling the pipe with sand first. Also read somewhere of filling the pipe with water and freezing it before bending, but, knowing that water expands when it freezes, this might split the pipe.
I've seen suggestions for avoiding kinking by filling the pipe with sand first. Also read somewhere of filling the pipe with water and freezing it before bending, but, knowing that water expands when it freezes, this might split the pipe.
BIAB Bags from http://brewinabag.co.uk
Re: Reverse chiller
From what I have heard, the piping used for air cons is a "soft drawn" pipe and bends easily by hand. I will go and investigate during the week and see what I can find that may be suitable. I need to get my equipment ready as I have ordered the ingredients for my first few brews. I bought a 50 litre SS urn which I tested today, only to find that it actually holds 40 litres (not a major problem as it was on special but still). We did some basic prep work by filling the containers with a measuring jug to mark of some basic levels. This is how we found out about the capacity of the urn. We also filled the mash tun for the same reason, only to find that the tap installed at the bottom leaks. I need to return the tap, fit the replacement, build the heat exchanger and brew....
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Re: Reverse chiller
The issue you'll have is that your cooling water will eventually reach thermal equilibrium with the wort. Start circulating 40 litres of 100C wort through 40 litres of 1C water and they'll eventually both reach around 50C.
You can make an immersion chiller system much more efficient by:
1. Having the biggest chiller you possibly can.
2. Introducing a whirlpool to keep the wort moving.
#2 has a massive effect.
Alternatively, go to counterflow chillers - you might want to look at this thread for experimentation in making the most efficient counterflow chiller possible: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=69638
You can make an immersion chiller system much more efficient by:
1. Having the biggest chiller you possibly can.
2. Introducing a whirlpool to keep the wort moving.
#2 has a massive effect.
Alternatively, go to counterflow chillers - you might want to look at this thread for experimentation in making the most efficient counterflow chiller possible: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=69638
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Reverse chiller
As well as cleaning, I would be concerned about drying your copper coil. It will be extremely difficult to dry out thoroughly, so you will start to develop verdigris, which is reactive and toxic, and will get deposited into your nice fresh wort...