Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

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timtoos
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Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by timtoos » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:10 pm

Hi all,

I have the book Clone brews. Theres loads of recipes in there but it seems that the AG content is an after thought as the main content seems to focus on the extract versions. Anyway, whats your guys experience with this book? Theres loads of recipes but I've steered clear of using the book but thought its time to dig out a few recipes to brew.

The AG recipe variants always calls for less hop additions as compared to the extract. Is this correct and should I follow this reduced hops additions schedule? (usually 20-25% less compared to the extract).

When I scale the recipe and update my hops with the correct AA value, do the hops at the 15 minute and 5 minute boil stages also change due to the AA% content or are they simply scaled just because of the appropriate volume change? Or is it simply the bittering hops which need to reflect the differing AA content? Does the AA content at late additions make a big impact?

What I am worried about is changing the ratio of hop additions and upsetting the brew balance. My hops AA values are much lower than the books calculated thats all so will the late addition amounts stay the same or increase due to the lower AA values?

Hope these questions make sense.

Thanks in advance

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alexlark
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by alexlark » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:43 am

I've got that book.

I'm going to brew a Keo Lager and Heineken Lager from it this winter.

Your right though, AG seems to be an after thought. What I have done so far is put the recipes into BeerSmith, reduce the amounts as per the book and then made sure the bitterness is the same as the book based on my hops AA (slight increase or decrease as needed). BeerSmith can do that and that is close enough for me. I done the same for OG as well and that is even easier.

BrannigansLove
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by BrannigansLove » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:59 am

I'd second alexlark's advice. I was disappointed with that book, for the same reasons, the AG options are very much an afterthought, and in my opinion, not a lot of thought went into them.

JimJiminy

Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by JimJiminy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:25 pm

Just a guess: Are the extract recipes based on partial boils? If so, the boil gravity will be higher, and therefore the AA extraction will be lower, and therefore the amount of hops required will be more.

timtoos
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by timtoos » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:53 pm

Hi guys,

So you have altered the bittering hop additions to suit the desired IBU - I have also done this. What about the late additions (at 15 and if applicable at 5 mins). Have you changed them to suit the differing levels of AA content of the hops you will be using? My AA value is at 1.7% vs the books 4.5%.

I know the late additions of hops is for aroma than bitterness so does the AA value make much difference and facilitate changing the amounts added because of this difference?

Thanks in advance

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alexlark
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by alexlark » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:59 pm

The 2 recipes I mention call for hops at 10 mins. The hops I have are half the AA of the book so I have doubled them. Really you want to use some software just to check your figures.

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Normski
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by Normski » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:25 am

Hi timtoos
I have made many of the beers in Clone Brews and I think they are good recipes.
Its only the bittering hops that they suggest reducing compaired to the extract recipes.
This is because most of the extract recipes have shorter boil times, therefore require more hops too achieve the same level of bittering.
If you stick to the recipes AG instructions at the bottom of the pages, you wont go too far wrong. If you need help with a few of the recipes just let me know which ones. You’ll soon get the hang of it.
Norm
The Doghouse Brewery (UK)

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thepatchworkdoll
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by thepatchworkdoll » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:07 pm

Well said Normski
Ive got the book as well. Made many recipoes as per it and never been dissappointed. I toitally agree with Normski on this. Anyone thinking of brewing the recipes in this book do not hesitate.
Regards
Patch

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PhilB
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by PhilB » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:20 pm

Hi All

Sorry for being late chipping in to this thread .. and I'll admit I don't really want to either add to or counter any of the advice above, but ... I would like to discuss around this further, and would like to do that by sending out a plea to some of the people on the forum with hop-growing and analysis experience (I realise that may well only be Dave Berry (scuppeteer), but hopefully some others may chip in) to share their opinion on this question too ...

... do the growing conditions that get hops growing with higher (or lower) alpha-acid levels, in any season, tend to also produce hops with higher (or lower) levels of flavour/aroma producing oils ? ...

... because it seems (to me anyway :? ) that if the concentration of alpha acids and the oils go together, season by season, then we should be scaling all hop additions equally (like Alex suggests above) ... but if the production of hop oils is relatively constant, whatever the levels of alpha-acids produced, then we wouldn't scale late additions (like Norm and Patch suggest) ... but if a hop plant may make more (aroma/flavour producing) oils in years where it produces hop flowers with less alpha acids, then we should actually be adding less of those late hops :? ... I don't know the answer, but I'm sure there are people out there who do :? :wink:

Cheers, PhilB

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Normski
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by Normski » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:30 pm

Hi Phil
I’m not suggesting that.
I’m only saying, This is what the Clone Brews book recipes advise regarding the hoping rate between an Extract and an AG brew.
Norm
The Doghouse Brewery (UK)

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PhilB
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by PhilB » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:36 am

Hi Norm
Normski wrote:I’m not suggesting that ... I’m only saying, This is what the Clone Brews book recipes advise regarding the hoping rate between an Extract and an AG brew.
... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to "blame" you there :oops: ... I guess the point I was trying to make was that we all, as brewers, have our approaches to addressing this "problem", Alex was passing on his approach (I'm not sure how he decided to follow that :? ), you were passing on the Szamatulski's approach ... but I'd love to know if that's based on any "science" or whether it's just what Tess and/or Mark Szamatulski prefer to do :?

Cheers, PhilB

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alexlark
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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by alexlark » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:42 pm

Now that I've got BeerSmith what I do when taking a recipe out of a book is to put the recipe into BeerSmith, eactly as in the book. I then look at IBU and go from there. If my hops are way over or under in AA I adjust them. In this case, doubled the amount. This got me pretty close to the original IBU from the recipe. I'm happy with that! Usually my hops AA are close enough.

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Re: Clone Brews Book Advice - Hop additions

Post by scuppeteer » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:18 pm

Having been poked by Phil :wink: my observations as such.

I can't comment on extract as I only AG, also I know of the book in question but don't own a copy or any recipe book I'm afraid.

I adjust the AA% for all hop additions accordingly. As you know they can differ by several percent season by season and also farm to farm. You may only have a small amount for initial bittering but then larger for say a 20 or 10 minute. This difference will obviously affect the total IBU's, though I find the later hops give an overall smoother bittering but it can potentially be over bitter if not adjusted. If you have the same variety and same season hop side by side but are different Alpha you can easily smell the difference, you'd be forgiven for thinking they were a different hop altogether.

As for the difference in Alpha and essential oils this is in direct relation. More Alpha = more oils and vice versa. Take for example Cascade, whilst terroir has much to do with it, the lower Alpha of UK Cascade makes them much more mellow than their American sisters. Why do we use less American hops in our beer than English to get the same hop hit if it wasn't relative?

Hope my pennyworth is of use. :)
Dave Berry


Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!

Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC

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