Protein and Grainfather

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wardy

Protein and Grainfather

Post by wardy » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:47 pm

Hi folks,
I've done about 9 brews now using a Grainfather and initially (first 4) were stout but the last 4 IPA's have finished cloudy. I am certain that this is protein because I've cold crashed the last 2 for 3 weeks in temperature below 5c out in the shed. I have seen cold break materials going into the FV when the hot wort is pumped through the counterflow chiller and it sits on the bottom but I suspect airiating the wort is causing the protein to go back into the wort.
Does anyone have any suggestions or currently use a method for stopping this material going into the FV or is it best to just rack it off the cold break material and put it in another FV.
Thanks in advance,
Wardy

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by Rhodesy » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:04 pm

What temperature are you serving at? It may be chill haze which can settle out with time or you can add clarity ferm or the likes to help avoid it. Also do you use kettle finings such as Protofloc (Irish Moss) etc?

I used to use a plate chiller meaning that the FV had all the cold break when fermenting which caused no issues when it came to bottling/kegging.

critch

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by critch » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:06 pm

most commercial breweries(tbh all the ones ive ever seen!) use a plate chiller, ergo the cold break ends up in the F.V.. I seriously doubt if this is the problem ive brewed over a thousand times(including work!)in the few occasions ive encountered similar its been down to a cock up with copper fining or a very poor or short boil

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:51 pm

There are a lot of factors affecting clarity but probably the biggest is as Critch says poor boil. A lot of brewers end up simmering rather than obtaining and maintaining a really good rolling boil. This helps the proteins to coagulate, adding Irish moss or Protafloc aids this enormously and if missed not recoverable from in my experience, if you don't want to wait months for it to clear naturally and putting it in a fridge is likely to trigger chill haze. Mash pH is another factor but that is going into complications for now.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
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critch

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by critch » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:59 pm

oops! thanks orlando forgot ph! did you check this when mashing wardy?

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by vacant » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:24 pm

I doubt aerating the wort is the cause. If you are using dried yeast such as Nottingham there is no point in aerating according to the manufacturer (pdf).
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wardy

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by wardy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:14 am

Thanks guys, all the brews had a good rolling boil for 1 hour and mash Ph is always 5.2
The wort was very clear on all IPA brews as it went into the FV at 21 degrees C. It was only when I gave it a pounding to airiate it and then adding yeast that it became cloudy and stayed that way. I used half of a protofloc tablet in each brew and the last brew I started about 6 week ago is sat in the brew cupboard at 20 c, no active fermentation and still cloudy. I did 2 brews on the brew day and the second has been outside at around 5 C for almost 4 weeks and still cloudy.
I'm certainly puzzled because it isn't chill haze and I doubt it is yeast (I used Safale US -05 ) but can't rule it out.

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:39 am

wardy wrote:Thanks guys, all the brews had a good rolling boil for 1 hour and mash Ph is always 5.2
The wort was very clear on all IPA brews as it went into the FV at 21 degrees C. It was only when I gave it a pounding to airiate it and then adding yeast that it became cloudy and stayed that way. I used half of a protofloc tablet in each brew and the last brew I started about 6 week ago is sat in the brew cupboard at 20 c, no active fermentation and still cloudy. I did 2 brews on the brew day and the second has been outside at around 5 C for almost 4 weeks and still cloudy.
I'm certainly puzzled because it isn't chill haze and I doubt it is yeast (I used Safale US -05 ) but can't rule it out.

Always 5.2, well done sounds perfect, that really only leaves microbiological contamination. Can you smell anything untoward? You also seem very certain it isn't chill haze, why do you say that?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

wardy

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by wardy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:56 am

orlando wrote:
wardy wrote:Thanks guys, all the brews had a good rolling boil for 1 hour and mash Ph is always 5.2
The wort was very clear on all IPA brews as it went into the FV at 21 degrees C. It was only when I gave it a pounding to airiate it and then adding yeast that it became cloudy and stayed that way. I used half of a protofloc tablet in each brew and the last brew I started about 6 week ago is sat in the brew cupboard at 20 c, no active fermentation and still cloudy. I did 2 brews on the brew day and the second has been outside at around 5 C for almost 4 weeks and still cloudy.
I'm certainly puzzled because it isn't chill haze and I doubt it is yeast (I used Safale US -05 ) but can't rule it out.

Always 5.2, well done sounds perfect, that really only leaves microbiological contamination. Can you smell anything untoward? You also seem very certain it isn't chill haze, why do you say that?
I'm sure it isn't chill haze because it has never been clear. The 2 brews that I have in the FVs just now smell and taste amazing. One is in the shed that has been cold crashed and the other is still in the brew cupboard at 20c. If I put it all in the kegs and it doesn't give me or anyone else the runs I'm not too bothered but I know that I will get health questions if I serve it up to friends.
I'm relatively new to AG (started at Christmas) and I've not had a clear beer yet from AG but all my kit brews were very clear.

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:18 pm

wardy wrote: If I put it all in the kegs and it doesn't give me or anyone else the runs I'm not too bothered but I know that I will get health questions if I serve it up to friends.
I'm relatively new to AG (started at Christmas) and I've not had a clear beer yet from AG but all my kit brews were very clear.

First of all neither you or anyone else will get the trots. A boil of that length kills everything and anything else that gets in later isn't going to cause a problem. If we track back a moment and accept you're statements so far are accurate then we might need to look at your sparging, you do sparge don't you? Sparging beyond 1.005, some say 1.010, can extract tannins that help to bind proteins that help towards clarity but too much tannin extraction can lead to chill haze. Stopping your sparging before you reach these levels may help. Another factor can be sparging with water that is too hot, do you know how hot it becomes? You also don't mention how long you sparged, longer is better. From what you have said my money is now moving towards high levels of protein occurring in the mash, but without ruling out contamination.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:38 pm

Just remembered you mention IPA's, are you a bit of a hop head, what sort of quantities of hops do you use, not just in the boil but also if you dry hop? Hops also introduce polyphenols and this can cause significant hazing. If this is the case then there are a couple of remedies. I haven't used polyclar but it is said to be very good at removing this kind of haze but heard its a bi of a bugger to work with and not always successful. Fining with something like gelatine can be very effective if done properly, what if anything have you used?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

wardy

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by wardy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:36 pm

orlando wrote:Just remembered you mention IPA's, are you a bit of a hop head, what sort of quantities of hops do you use, not just in the boil but also if you dry hop? Hops also introduce polyphenols and this can cause significant hazing. If this is the case then there are a couple of remedies. I haven't used polyclar but it is said to be very good at removing this kind of haze but heard its a bi of a bugger to work with and not always successful. Fining with something like gelatine can be very effective if done properly, what if anything have you used?
Thanks for that.
The ones I've done so far have been 2 AG kits. I did the American double IPA from Home Brew Company and an IPA kit that I can't remember the name of. I've also done a Belgian beer recipe and an IPA that I bought the ingredients separately for.
I didn't follow kit instructions because I am using a Grainfather so I used around 10 litres of sparge water at 75 C.
The recirculating wort hadn't gone crystal clear on any of the brews so on the last one I did I stirred the grain up 15 minutes before the end of the mash at 65C and by the mash out the wort was very clear. The odd thing is that there were clumps of cold break material that dropped right to the bottom of the FV and I thought it would do the same after airiating but I don't know if it did because after adding the yeast I expected it to turn cloudy anyway. During the first part of fermentation I could see clumps of stuff rising and falling too.

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:11 pm

wardy wrote:
orlando wrote:Just remembered you mention IPA's, are you a bit of a hop head, what sort of quantities of hops do you use, not just in the boil but also if you dry hop? Hops also introduce polyphenols and this can cause significant hazing. If this is the case then there are a couple of remedies. I haven't used polyclar but it is said to be very good at removing this kind of haze but heard its a bi of a bugger to work with and not always successful. Fining with something like gelatine can be very effective if done properly, what if anything have you used?
Thanks for that.
The ones I've done so far have been 2 AG kits. I did the American double IPA from Home Brew Company and an IPA kit that I can't remember the name of. I've also done a Belgian beer recipe and an IPA that I bought the ingredients separately for.
I didn't follow kit instructions because I am using a Grainfather so I used around 10 litres of sparge water at 75 C.
The recirculating wort hadn't gone crystal clear on any of the brews so on the last one I did I stirred the grain up 15 minutes before the end of the mash at 65C and by the mash out the wort was very clear. The odd thing is that there were clumps of cold break material that dropped right to the bottom of the FV and I thought it would do the same after airiating but I don't know if it did because after adding the yeast I expected it to turn cloudy anyway. During the first part of fermentation I could see clumps of stuff rising and falling too.
What about the questions I asked?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

wardy

Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by wardy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:18 pm

orlando wrote:
wardy wrote:
orlando wrote:Just remembered you mention IPA's, are you a bit of a hop head, what sort of quantities of hops do you use, not just in the boil but also if you dry hop? Hops also introduce polyphenols and this can cause significant hazing. If this is the case then there are a couple of remedies. I haven't used polyclar but it is said to be very good at removing this kind of haze but heard its a bi of a bugger to work with and not always successful. Fining with something like gelatine can be very effective if done properly, what if anything have you used?
Thanks for that.
The ones I've done so far have been 2 AG kits. I did the American double IPA from Home Brew Company and an IPA kit that I can't remember the name of. I've also done a Belgian beer recipe and an IPA that I bought the ingredients separately for.
I didn't follow kit instructions because I am using a Grainfather so I used around 10 litres of sparge water at 75 C.
The recirculating wort hadn't gone crystal clear on any of the brews so on the last one I did I stirred the grain up 15 minutes before the end of the mash at 65C and by the mash out the wort was very clear. The odd thing is that there were clumps of cold break material that dropped right to the bottom of the FV and I thought it would do the same after airiating but I don't know if it did because after adding the yeast I expected it to turn cloudy anyway. During the first part of fermentation I could see clumps of stuff rising and falling too.
What about the questions I asked?
I only dry hopped the one that's outside in the shed just now. I've just sat the one from the cupboard outside to chill it and will put that in the shed tomorrow
This is the one not dry hopped and been sat with fermentation done for 4 weeks
Image

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Re: Protein and Grainfather

Post by orlando » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:37 pm

Well you can try fining it with gelatine or when you present it to others call it "Craft" beer. :D
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Riders On The Storm
Conditioning: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy) till December.
Drinking: Kings & Queens (Eldridge Pope Royal Oak clone), Gyle brewed Little Red Ruth(ster) & Red(Ruth)Rain 1867 recipe, From Russia With Love (RIS)

Up Next: Stout! In The Name Of Love, Elusive Butterfly
Planning: Autumn drinking Beer

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