1800s IPA aging question

[Jocky]

We also know that once in wood Brett is very difficult to remove, and barrels were reused, along with plenty of other wood in the breweries.

Won't most of the barrels lined with pitch or other substances that would have prevented them from having much, if any, effect on the beer?

Again Ron's blog provides some insight: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... h.html?m=1

The answer: it was more of a German thing. Doesn't mean it wasn't done by British breweries - some almost certainly did.

But in any case they also didn't have quite the understanding of microbiology or range of non rinse sanitisers that we do, particularly for something as persistent as Brett.

[Rookie]

That's a really good blog. I need to spend some time there.

[edonald774]

Why would the beer have been aged before shipping?
It was already going to take at least 9months to get to India in a ships hold.
I twould be interesting to see an original recpie because what was thought of as high alcohol and high hopped in the 1860s or even 1960s would likely be very different to what we think now: 7% ish and 50 IBUs would be a step change from milds, porter etc drunk by the majority then - not so special now tho!

Mitch Steele's book has some recipes.
Surprisingly, some were higher hopped and alcohol and than you imagine.

Really good book.


www.eliapplebydonald.co.uk/blog

[Jocky]

So tonight I tried a beer that was relevant to this discussion. It was a version of Troubadour Magma from 2014 with added Brett.

Regular Troubadour Magma is a Belgian Tripel that is hopped like an American IPA - really great if you have it on draft. Bottles obtained in the UK have been disappointing for the lack of hop presence.

The 2014 Magma had three types of Brett added, and honestly it was like someone had a Belgian Tripel mixed with some slightly sour tropical fruit juice.

[PhilB]

Hi Jocky

The 2014 Magma had three types of Brett added, and honestly it was like someone had a Belgian Tripel mixed with some slightly sour tropical fruit juice.

... if that experience leaves you unsure about whether you should put Brett in your beer ... and I'll admit that similar experiences (and the idea that the stuff is almost impossible to get rid of) have made me wonder whether that's really a good idea (so I haven't followed this advice (yet)) too ... but I don't think anyone else in this discussion has pointed to that thread over there (link) from some time ago, which has some info from Graham Wheeler which may (just) be the thing which convinces me (at least) to give it a go (at some point) ...

... brettanomyces bruxellensis was, later, regarded as an undesirable contaminant of British beers; it produces an unpalatable sourness and too much "smelly socks" aroma for British tastes. Brettanomyces claussenii, on the other hand, produces small amounts of acetic acid, but has the capability of reducing acids, including those produced by other bacteria, typically pediococcus strains, into fruity esters, so it produces a less sharp, more palatable, more complex beer than does brett. bruxellensis.

... it would seem not all Brett strains are "created equal" ... and Brett C (especially, in conjunction with pediococcus, perhaps) would be the way to go ... if/when you think it may be time to go for it

Cheers, PhilB

[critch]

.

The pale malt mostly used in those days was a variety called Chevalier. This has been revived and Crisps have been malting this the last few years, although it is not widely available. You can read a bit from Martyn Cornell here. I've tasted beer made with it but haven't been able to get my hands on any yet. There is a thought that the insane amount of hops that were used was to counteract the pronounced body that you get from this malt.

I have.....

its correct what your saying chavalier isn't particularly fermentable. However our own forum member shane swindell (unclepumple) did an amazing job of a old style i.p.a. at his brewery Cheshire brewhouse,using chevalier weve chatted about this grain , forwarned it was going to finish very high he tempered the sweetness with 7 kg of goldings at the start, in a 4bbl batch! I was lucky enough to get hold of this beer it was sublime, one of the best I have ever drunk, it was so well balanced and yet complex I cannot adequately describe it. hed aged it in oak barrels for 6 months b.t.w.

http://www.cheshirebrewhouse.co.uk/chev ... available/

sadly this is out of date and I think that hes run out......

[critch]

on the wooden barrels I can state that ones used today(by sam smiths anyway) don't have a pitch liner. I was lucky enough to be able to examine a couple of sam smiths wooden barrels(not firkins or kilderkins full sized barrels! ) that brewery ships all its ale, to its estate of pubs, in wooden barrels. this was only a couple of months ago, they were being shipped by trade team back up to tadcaster from London(beer shipped to non estate pubs is in stainless casks btw)

so if you want to experience wood aged beer try a sam smiths pub......

[Bazz]

I've got a quick question regarding dry hopping that is relevant to this conversation, since finishing reading Mitch Steele's book on IPA i ave been planning an old style IPA, 100% pale malt and 100% EKG, I was also going to give it a couple of months in a spare fv with some oak chips and was thinking of dry hopping in this secondary fv as well once racked off the yeast cake in the first fv, but not wanting to leave the dry hops in for too long i was wondering how to go about this.

The second fv will be left at ambient garage temperature so that my brew fridge isn't tied up for too long, so should i,

a) just chuck in the hops and oak chips and throw caution to the wind,

or

b) chuck the oak chips in and bag the hops to be removed after a week or so?

Thoughts and opinions greatly received.

Thanks.

[critch]

when ive used wood chips ive introduced them into primary fermentation in a sterilised bit of stockingette, I've found 2g/l to give a fairly subtle tone I basically just pitch onto the sterilised bag. id carefully remove them after fermentation is ended, what I do at work is leave them in the fermenter and rack it off but im casking after 3-4 days fermentation ,and crash chillingfor 3-4 days normal 1 week combined time, id be cautious about leaving them in post fermention beer for a length of time

[Bazz]

Thanks for your reply critch, since posting this i was off to look at the malt millers site to see if they had any oak chips available and they do and it also says to use them for 5 days or so, maybe i'll save a lot of time and hassle by dry hopping and oaking at the same time in the primary fv for 5-7 days then bottling and letting it bottle condition for a few months.

[Jocky]

Hi Jocky

The 2014 Magma had three types of Brett added, and honestly it was like someone had a Belgian Tripel mixed with some slightly sour tropical fruit juice.

... if that experience leaves you unsure about whether you should put Brett in your beer ... and I'll admit that similar experiences (and the idea that the stuff is almost impossible to get rid of) have made me wonder whether that's really a good idea (so I haven't followed this advice (yet)) too ... but I don't think anyone else in this discussion has pointed to that thread over there (link) from some time ago, which has some info from Graham Wheeler which may (just) be the thing which convinces me (at least) to give it a go (at some point) ...

... brettanomyces bruxellensis was, later, regarded as an undesirable contaminant of British beers; it produces an unpalatable sourness and too much "smelly socks" aroma for British tastes. Brettanomyces claussenii, on the other hand, produces small amounts of acetic acid, but has the capability of reducing acids, including those produced by other bacteria, typically pediococcus strains, into fruity esters, so it produces a less sharp, more palatable, more complex beer than does brett. bruxellensis.

... it would seem not all Brett strains are "created equal" ... and Brett C (especially, in conjunction with pediococcus, perhaps) would be the way to go ... if/when you think it may be time to go for it

Cheers, PhilB

Actually my experience suggested to me that I was totally on the right track. That beer without Brett is a great beer, but it's a fresh hop beer. The Brett version was drier and fruitier.

I have a beer planned that is 90% Maris Otter, 10% sugar to about 1.070 and 120 IBU of English hops.

Ferment it for 3 weeks with a traditional British yeast (will be the McEwans yeast for me) and then bottle some and move the rest to its secondary with Brett Clausenii (again - seems to be the British brett - Brett Bruxellensis seems to be regarded as undesirable when it was discovered)... Maybe with a small amount of oak cubes. I'll have to see if I can do it with and without oak somehow.

[Rookie]

I have a beer planned that is 90% Maris Otter, 10% sugar to about 1.070 and 120 IBU of English hops.
Ferment it for 3 weeks with a traditional British yeast (will be the McEwans yeast for me) and then bottle some and move the rest to its secondary with Brett Clausenii (again - seems to be the British brett - Brett Bruxellensis seems to be regarded as undesirable when it was discovered)... Maybe with a small amount of oak cubes. I'll have to see if I can do it with and without oak somehow.

How much B C per liter?

[Jocky]

Honestly...

No idea. First shot so looking for any recommendations.

Current feeling is that given the long growth time of Brett it's hard to estimate cell count from cultures, but I'm starting at an assumption of 10 billion cells per litre.

[Rookie]

Honestly...

No idea. First shot so looking for any recommendations.

Current feeling is that given the long growth time of Brett it's hard to estimate cell count from cultures, but I'm starting at an assumption of 10 billion cells per litre.

I was thinking about racking one gallon into a separate carboy and was wondering if I should just throw in the entire pack.

[critch]

its correct what your saying chavalier isn't particularly fermentable. However our own forum member shane swindell (unclepumple) did an amazing job of a old style i.p.a. at his brewery Cheshire brewhouse,using chevalier weve chatted about this grain , forwarned it was going to finish very high he tempered the sweetness with 7 kg of goldings at the start, in a 4bbl batch! I was lucky enough to get hold of this beer it was sublime, one of the best I have ever drunk, it was so well balanced and yet complex I cannot adequately describe it. hed aged it in oak barrels for 6 months b.t.w.

http://www.cheshirebrewhouse.co.uk/chev ... available/

sadly this is out of date and I think that hes run out......

ok put me down as a double lucky bar-steward, I just found two bottles in a bottleshop by mine, sitting all sad and unloved, of course being no stranger to humanitarian acts I gave them a good home.
I had one last night, it was fekkin glorious, even better than I remembered it, a truly brilliant effort im praying shane does another batch