Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

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Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by MTW » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:50 pm

My third hefe planned next week, and I'm considering diluting some of the liquor with Ashbeck, to reduce the sulphate and chloride gain of CRS. Your advice would be much appreciated:

Our water:
Alkalinity as CACO3, typically 100-120ppm; I will test on the day
Sulphate 48ppm: Chloride 28ppm

Should I (A) Just dilute 50:50 with Ashbeck, measure alkalinity, and treat that down to around 22ppm with CRS (the only acid I have), which should get my mash in the right area?

or (B) Do all that, but then add some Calcium chloride to balance the remaining sulphate bias? Is there a guesstimate amount to add there, without a full water calculation like BF or Brun?

...or something else? I need to keep a decent calcium level, I guess.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by BenB » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:54 pm

I'd get the Brunwater spreadsheet. Just ignore the suggested water profiles. Otherwise you're just guessing which is basically trial and error.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Aleman » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:39 pm

This is one of those times where CRS is contra indicated.

Looking at your sulphate and chloride levels you are in the ballpark for a wheat beer, just that dratted alkalinity that is the fly in the ointment. . . I'd bet your calcium levels are fine as well.

Personally I'd reduce with separate hydrochloric and sulphuric acids aiming for around 1 to 1.5 sulphate to chloride ratio. . .. but you haven't got that option.

I don't like it personally but how about phosphoric acid to reduce the alkalinity, and then calcium chloride to increase the chloride up to 1.5 times the sulphate.

An even worse option, (IMO) and it's relatively readily available, is lactic acid, and a lactate taint is an acceptable flaw in a wheat beer.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by mabrungard » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:30 am

In my opinion, German styles should always be made with some form of lactic acid. CRS is not ideal for those styles. Many German waters have modest mineralization and the boost in sulfate and chloride delivered by CRS may be uncharacteristic for those styles.

Given your reported alkalinity, you should be able to neutralize the alkalinity without incurring the lactic 'twang' flavor. For most people, adding 88% lactic at around 0.4 mL/L is going to be tasted as that twang in the beer. If you can keep the dose less than that and still hit your neutralization and pH goals, then lactic acid should be OK.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by MTW » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:34 am

I'm very grateful for the knowledgeable contributions, though no one has commented on the option I set out on part-dilution. Tesco Ashbeck water is reported as 10ppm suplate, 12 chloride, and I have measured 16ppm CaCO3, and is available locally. However, it would be getting a bit expensive to buy enough for the total liquor. If I use half and half, I wonder if the concerns with CRS (especially if I at least balance the sulphate chloride with some calcium chloride, and keep the bittering on the low end), would remain a noticeable problem.

Lactic - The last hefe I made, I used 3% acidulated malt so as to limit the amount of CRS needed, but I could taste it quite strongly. As you say, an acceptable taste in hefes apparently, but it was very noticeable to me (vs my previous hefe without it) and I wouldn't want to go higher.

For all my other brews, CRS gets me there OK, so I've shied away from keeping hydrochloric in the house; I also read that phosphoric can precipitate a lot of calcium out, so that sounded like a potential complication. Hence the dilution idea, though I've never done it before.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Goulders » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:46 am

If you are wondering what you would have left after mixing your water with Ashbeck 50:50, you can easily work out dilution rates by mixing, either manually or using an online calculator (I think brewersfriend or Braukeiser has one). You will then have a new base water profile to work on.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Aleman » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:10 am

MTW wrote:I'm very grateful for the knowledgeable contributions, though no one has commented on the option I set out on part-dilution.
When the vast majority of ions are already in the right ball park I shy away from dilution as a solution to using excessive acid. You are 'removing' stuff only to have to add it back later.
MTW wrote:Tesco Ashbeck water is reported as 10ppm suplate, 12 chloride, and I have measured 16ppm CaCO3, and is available locally. However, it would be getting a bit expensive to buy enough for the total liquor. If I use half and half, I wonder if the concerns with CRS (especially if I at least balance the sulphate chloride with some calcium chloride, and keep the bittering on the low end), would remain a noticeable problem.
Hmm, Lets work an example or two, you don't need an app or a spreadsheet to do this the maths is very simple.

Firstly some assumptions Total volume of liquor 30L, a 50 50 mix of tap water and ashbeck Ion levels are Tap - Alkalinity = 115 , sulphate = 48 , and chloride = 28. Ashbeck - Alkalinity = 16, Sulphate = 10, Chloride = 12. 1ml of CRS neutralises 183mg of alkalinity and adds 89.6mg of sulphate and 56 mg of chloride.

After Dilution

The total amount of alkalinity is 15 * 115 + 15 * 16 = 1965 So per litre its 1965 /30 Or 65.5
The total amount of sulphate is 15 * 48 + 15 * 10 = 870 So per litre its 870 /30 Or 29
The total amount of Chloride is 15 * 28 + 15 * 12 = 600 So per litre its 600 /30 Or 20

Actually not to bad, but alkalinity is still too high really for a pale beer. Lets now look at treatment with CRS

Reduce alkalinity to 25 using CRS Requires a reduction of 65-25 or 40mg per litre. 40 * 30 is 1200mg divided by 183 gives 6.6ml of CRS required.

6.6ml of CRS adds 6.6 * 89.6 or 591 sulphate giving a total of (591 + 29) / 30 mg/L or 49 mg/l
It also adds 6.6 * 56 or 369mg of chloride giving (396 + 20 ) /30 mg/L or 32 mg/L

Lets look at what we ended up with

Alkalinity 25
Sulphate 49
Chloride 32

Which to be fair is not bad for a wheat beer. The only issue is what's happened to the calcium (reduced by ~ half ish), so you may find adding some calcium chloride to take the chloride up to perhaps 60-70 will be beneficial.
MTW wrote:Lactic - The last hefe I made, I used 3% acidulated malt so as to limit the amount of CRS needed, but I could taste it quite strongly. As you say, an acceptable taste in hefes apparently, but it was very noticeable to me (vs my previous hefe without it) and I wouldn't want to go higher.
I hear what you are saying. Due to a combination of circumstances I am rather sensitive to the 'Lactic Twang', and to me it screams FAULT, even though it is accepted as a characteristic in wheat beers. Much in a similar way Diacetyl is, or should, be present at about the taste threshold in a Bohemian Pilsner.
MTW wrote:For all my other brews, CRS gets me there OK, so I've shied away from keeping hydrochloric in the house; I also read that phosphoric can precipitate a lot of calcium out, so that sounded like a potential complication. Hence the dilution idea, though I've never done it before.
Working the figures shows that dilution would work and work reasonably well, another alternative is treatment with slaked lime a couple of days before brewing and racking off the sediment . . . Which is another German technique that would work well in this case.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by MTW » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:52 am

Aleman wrote:
MTW wrote:I'm very grateful for the knowledgeable contributions, though no one has commented on the option I set out on part-dilution.
When the vast majority of ions are already in the right ball park I shy away from dilution as a solution to using excessive acid. You are 'removing' stuff only to have to add it back later.
MTW wrote:Tesco Ashbeck water is reported as 10ppm suplate, 12 chloride, and I have measured 16ppm CaCO3, and is available locally. However, it would be getting a bit expensive to buy enough for the total liquor. If I use half and half, I wonder if the concerns with CRS (especially if I at least balance the sulphate chloride with some calcium chloride, and keep the bittering on the low end), would remain a noticeable problem.
Hmm, Lets work an example or two, you don't need an app or a spreadsheet to do this the maths is very simple.

Firstly some assumptions Total volume of liquor 30L, a 50 50 mix of tap water and ashbeck Ion levels are Tap - Alkalinity = 115 , sulphate = 48 , and chloride = 28. Ashbeck - Alkalinity = 16, Sulphate = 10, Chloride = 12. 1ml of CRS neutralises 183mg of alkalinity and adds 89.6mg of sulphate and 56 mg of chloride.

After Dilution

The total amount of alkalinity is 15 * 115 + 15 * 16 = 1965 So per litre its 1965 /30 Or 65.5
The total amount of sulphate is 15 * 48 + 15 * 10 = 870 So per litre its 870 /30 Or 29
The total amount of Chloride is 15 * 28 + 15 * 12 = 600 So per litre its 600 /30 Or 20

Actually not to bad, but alkalinity is still too high really for a pale beer. Lets now look at treatment with CRS

Reduce alkalinity to 25 using CRS Requires a reduction of 65-25 or 40mg per litre. 40 * 30 is 1200mg divided by 183 gives 6.6ml of CRS required.

6.6ml of CRS adds 6.6 * 89.6 or 591 sulphate giving a total of (591 + 29) / 30 mg/L or 49 mg/l
It also adds 6.6 * 56 or 369mg of chloride giving (396 + 20 ) /30 mg/L or 32 mg/L

Lets look at what we ended up with

Alkalinity 25
Sulphate 49
Chloride 32

Which to be fair is not bad for a wheat beer. The only issue is what's happened to the calcium (reduced by ~ half ish), so you may find adding some calcium chloride to take the chloride up to perhaps 60-70 will be beneficial.
MTW wrote:Lactic - The last hefe I made, I used 3% acidulated malt so as to limit the amount of CRS needed, but I could taste it quite strongly. As you say, an acceptable taste in hefes apparently, but it was very noticeable to me (vs my previous hefe without it) and I wouldn't want to go higher.
I hear what you are saying. Due to a combination of circumstances I am rather sensitive to the 'Lactic Twang', and to me it screams FAULT, even though it is accepted as a characteristic in wheat beers. Much in a similar way Diacetyl is, or should, be present at about the taste threshold in a Bohemian Pilsner.
MTW wrote:For all my other brews, CRS gets me there OK, so I've shied away from keeping hydrochloric in the house; I also read that phosphoric can precipitate a lot of calcium out, so that sounded like a potential complication. Hence the dilution idea, though I've never done it before.
Working the figures shows that dilution would work and work reasonably well, another alternative is treatment with slaked lime a couple of days before brewing and racking off the sediment . . . Which is another German technique that would work well in this case.
Wow! I am incredibly grateful for that fantastic answer, thank you. And I take on board what you are saying in your first comment about dilution.

Ending up with a half decent wheat liquor will certainly do for this occasion, and I will do some working out for the calcium chloride. I now had a set of "drug-dealer" scales accurate enough to measure it out. It should be a good improvement on what I've done before, where the sulphate has soared well over 100.

Thanks again.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by mabrungard » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:44 am

Phosphoric acid can only precipitate calcium out of solution if the calcium concentration is already high. Under that condition, there is NO penalty in loosing calcium. In fact, you can brew very good beers without any calcium in your brewing water since the malt supplies all the calcium that the yeast need for their metabolism. The only thing you lose by brewing with low calcium water is the ability to quickly clear your ales of yeast. If you filter or fine your beer, you don't need calcium at all.

Phosphoric acid is OK for brewing.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Oakey22 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:45 am

mabrungard wrote:Phosphoric acid can only precipitate calcium out of solution if the calcium concentration is already high. Under that condition, there is NO penalty in loosing calcium. In fact, you can brew very good beers without any calcium in your brewing water since the malt supplies all the calcium that the yeast need for their metabolism. The only thing you lose by brewing with low calcium water is the ability to quickly clear your ales of yeast. If you filter or fine your beer, you don't need calcium at all.

Phosphoric acid is OK for brewing.
Do you have any data to back this up Martin? It would be interesting to see what tests have been done with regards to calcium losses from different acids and how much is precipitated out.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Eric » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:06 am

Oakey22 wrote:
mabrungard wrote:Phosphoric acid can only precipitate calcium out of solution if the calcium concentration is already high. Under that condition, there is NO penalty in loosing calcium. In fact, you can brew very good beers without any calcium in your brewing water since the malt supplies all the calcium that the yeast need for their metabolism. The only thing you lose by brewing with low calcium water is the ability to quickly clear your ales of yeast. If you filter or fine your beer, you don't need calcium at all.

Phosphoric acid is OK for brewing.
Do you have any data to back this up Martin? It would be interesting to see what tests have been done with regards to calcium losses from different acids and how much is precipitated out.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by mabrungard » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:37 am

Oakey22 wrote: Do you have any data to back this up Martin? It would be interesting to see what tests have been done with regards to calcium losses from different acids and how much is precipitated out.
The data on calcium precipitation due to phosphoric acid addition is presented in Palmer and Kaminski's book on Water. This is a unique precipitation result that is solely due to the creation of insoluble calcium phosphate. No other typical brewing acid can cause that result. In fact, pH reduction typically makes metal ions more soluble.

Eric, perhaps you can explain how filtration makes a beer bland? I know of thousands of breweries around the world that filter their beers prior to packaging. I'm not sure how that operation makes all beer bland. I am aware that filtering too finely can strip flavor from beer, but most brewers are smart enough to recognize that overfiltration is detrimental to beer flavor and they don't go to that extent. The primary reason that most brewers filter is to improve clarity and that does not require a high level of filtering. In fact, many breweries that have adequate tankage and lagering time, do not filter.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Aleman » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:28 am

Martin you are absolutely right in that it is calcium phosphate that is being precipitated. However what we have noticed in a little experiment is that up to 80% of the calcium present in the mash liquor is removed (Regardless of the acid used to reduce alkalinity). I know you are aware that calcium has an important role to play in many reactions . . . physical and chemical . . . from the mash onwards, right through to beer stability in the bottle.

A beer with sufficient calcium in the liquor, needs much fewer interventions (*) from the brewer to produce a clear clean tasting stable product, compared to one where the calcium is deficient.

(*) Whether that intervention is merely cold and time as used to be done in Czech pilsner breweries, or artificial filtration. Indeed the Czech breweries I have visited are now using additional calcium in their liquors to reduce the requirement for extended ageing/lagering and 'polishing'.

Just to clear things up ( :D ) what you have appeared to say in your two posts are you don't need to add any additional calcium to make beer, but you will, probably, need to filter them to ensure adequate clarity.

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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by MTW » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:25 am

Well, can I check my Calcium chloride calculation with you helpful folk and ask a follow up? :D

Taking Aleman's calculation above, with my tap water at 115ppm CaCO3 on the day (tonight!), with 50% Ashbeck, and CRS added to get down to 25ppm, I'd have around 32ppm chloride, 49 sulphate, and I'm guessing maybe 32 calcium. From Palmer, calcium chloride would add 72ppm Ca and 127ppm Cl at 1g per (US?) gallon. I have 9.2 US gallons of brewing liquor to treat (36L).

If I add 1.5g, I make that 12ppm Ca added, for a total of around 48, and 21ppm extra chloride, for a total of 53ppm (balancing the 49 sulphate pretty close).

Staying on the Calcium theme, does 48 still sound a bit low, and if so, should I be willing to push the chloride a bit further in raising it, or start adding a bit of gypsum as well to keep the sulphate it in line?

Added: for what it's worth, I would like this hefe to stay hazy anyway, but I don't want a weak fermentation or any other issues.
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Re: Dilution vs CRS help for hefe

Post by Dave S » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:37 am

MTW wrote:Well, can I check my Calcium chloride calculation with you helpful folk and ask a follow up? :D

Taking Aleman's calculation above, with my tap water at 115ppm CaCO3 on the day (tonight!), with 50% Ashbeck, and CRS added to get down to 25ppm, I'd have around 32ppm chloride, 49 sulphate, and I'm guessing maybe 32 calcium. From Palmer, calcium chloride would add 72ppm Ca and 127ppm Cl at 1g per (US?) gallon. I have 9.2 US gallons of brewing liquor to treat (36L).

If I add 1.5g, I make that 12ppm Ca added, for a total of around 48, and 21ppm extra chloride, for a total of 53ppm (balancing the 49 sulphate pretty close).

Staying on the Calcium theme, does 48 still sound a bit low, and if so, should I be willing to push the chloride a bit further in raising it, or start adding a bit of gypsum as well to keep the sulphate it in line?

Added: for what it's worth, I would like this hefe to stay hazy anyway, but I don't want a weak fermentation or any other issues.
As Aleman mentions above, whatever calcium goes into the Mash, more than half of it will precipitate out, and in a very short time too. I now shoot for at least 150ppm of Ca in the Mash to ensure there is enough to carry through to the later stages. Since doing this I reckon the quality of my beer has improved in many ways, not least clarity, (I rarely use finings).
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