tasty vorlauf and cloudy runnings

[Dan]

This might raise an eyebrow.
does anyone taste their runoff regularly?
i mentioned this before in the haze thread, but i think it went by the wayside.

I find that the first runnings (before recycling) are sweet thick and strongly malty, as i hope they should be! But during recycling they sometimes pick up a certain bitterness. it catches the back of your throat. slightly caramel and more noticable with higher amounts crystal malt. It is for want of a better word stale. After recerculating the flavour dissapears.

anyone had this?

also at the end of sparging. I often take a trial jar of the run off just before closing the tap. This is what i take my final sparge gravity from. It looks briliantly clear and very pale. but if left to cool it soon clouds (takes on a moderate haze).

anyone had this?

am i normal ?

Im just trying to open the can of answers on my hazy beers

[Dan]

The jar to the left is the final runnings taken the next day.
the jar to the right is a wort sample after boiling and cooling.

[brewsters millionths]

how do you manage to get a haze into wort that clear?

[Jim]

I (very strongly) suspect that the bitterness is the wort picking up tannins from the grain husks.

It may not be a problem - the last runnings don't have as much sugar in them to hide the inevitable slight astringency.

EDIT: Just read your post properly and realised you were talking about recirculated wort.

Modified answer - I don't know.

[Dan]

how do you manage to get a haze into wort that clear? Shocked

I often wonder that myself. the wort i produce is sparkling. with the highest level of clarity. yet often the beers pick up a haze from this point onwards.

I just wonderd if the recycling and sparging side might hold any clues to this?

[oblivious]

Yep, the majority of the protein will denature during the boil and in conjunction with Whirlfloc this sill really help in clarifying it

Or batch sparging and using ph5.2 stabiliser

[Dan]

I dont receculate much more than 6 L because wit my system the clarity just dosent get any better from that point onwards. ph is usualy 5.2 and spargings rarely fall below 1.012. recirculating was done over a slotted peice of tinfoil.

I was just trying to find out what another brewers final runnings looked like after they cool and if other people noticed that certain flavour during the recirculation? If this is normal, i will move my focus onto the next part of brewing and slowly find the problem in my hazy beer.

[oblivious]

Here is part of the first running’s for my last beer, I only take of the first two litres,

[Vossy1]

Dan, those trial jar pictures are superb. I take it the hazy one has no yeast and has just been left to stand from running off.

I also get clear run off but I've never left any like above, but I bet if I did, it would be the same!

There must be somebody who can identify this. Maybe David Edge might know or somebody he knows ?

EDIT, Just re read the cloudy sample has not been boiled

[Barley Water]

I say "don't worry, have a homebrew". When I boil my wort, I always get a big hot break going (I get a very stout boil going because I want as much hot break as possible). After the boil (while the wort is hot) it is very clear. Once I run the hot work through my couterflow chiller, it again gets cloudy (cold break). The colder I can get my wort before pitching the yeast, the better, so it is always cloudy. All this stuff drops out of suspension during primary fermentation and I just rack the young beer off all this stuff when I put it into secondary. I really don't have problems with clarity although I never filter because I am lazy and actually want a little yeast in the beer (extra vitamin B never hurt anyone).

[David Edge]

Certainly good practice to taste the wort (not something I'd thought of). Slightly confused re:

But during recycling they sometimes pick up a certain bitterness. it catches the back of your throat. slightly caramel and more noticable with higher amounts crystal malt. It is for want of a better word stale. After recerculating the flavour dissapears.

So does it start nice, then go off, then get better again? I find the fines collect at the bottom of the mash tun and recirculating removes them. One thing Keith Thomas (Brewlab) taught me was to avoid adjusting the run-off tap during sparge. I now set it to recirculate and leave it alone as changes in flow rate can dislodge particles.

The reason for keeping sparge pH down is that the last runnings do contain a disproportionate amount of proteins and tannins. If you re-heat the cloudy sample does it disappear again? - that would confirm protein/tannin and suggest dropping the pH of your sparge liquor. It's not quite clear from Gillian Grafton's article
http://craftbrewing.org.uk/technical/do ... cal-39.htm
whether tannins contribute to hazes pre-boil - perhaps because nobody is too fussed about hazy runoff if a good boil and break removes it.

There's an article on hazes starting on page 9 of this:
http://craftbrewing.org.uk/bcpdf/BC5-3_sep2005.pdf
it gets rather tedious after the end of the table. But the table will allow you to diagnose the problem.

If you sparge long enough, it will go cloudy and you should cut off before that happens. Presumably if it eventually gets cloudy at 68C, a bit earlier it will be clear, but will cloud on cooling.

Looking at the second sample, your beer's a great deal clearer than mine - not sure you have much to worry about!

Sorry, I'm a bit under the weather and not sure I'm making much sense. Please ask for clarifications... (ho ho blooming ho).[/quote]

[Vossy1]

Looking at the second sample, your beer's a great deal clearer than mine - not sure you have much to worry about!

Hmm but there's a problem, post fermentation the finished beer is hazy

[David Edge]

In which case yeast seems likely. I've got 40 litres of pale ale fermented with S-33 that won't clear - and I know a commercial brewer who had ten batches likewise!

Some strains flocculate better than others - what are you using, Dan? Also adding some calcium will assist flocculation.

And how clear do you want it? I've never used finings and never achieved polish. My beers come bright eventually, but it's not something I've ever chased... Other people - good luck to them - add aux finings to the conditioning tank and isinglass in cask and if you want real polish you'll either need to do that or filter - another topic out of my depth, although if you know Tom Yates (which your address suggests you might) he'll give you the gory details.

[Dan]

David: So does it start nice, then go off, then get better again?

yes exactly that.

Some strains flocculate better than others - what are you using,

I think ive ruled out yeast, this is a chronic problem over 15 batches, Ive used safale04 saflager23 nottingham windsor.
funnily enough when i made a spate of lagers using liquid wyeast2007pils I got good clarity. but that could be the malt

If you re-heat the cloudy sample does it disappear again?

ill check

And how clear do you want it?

Im not striving for that polished look. just reasonably bright. some of the hazes i produce are not even transparent.

Thankyou for the input everyone. the two documents on haze are excellent david. It really gives me some avenues to explore.

[Dan]

i bunged the sample into the microwave

20C haze
40C haze
50C haze
60C haze
70C etc

Its not a fair test as the sample is 2 days old. it might have a bacterial haze by now, i'll have to test on brewday. interestingly this sample in the pic is one of the cloudest. other batches didnt turn so opaque.