Yeast taste from wlp002

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Matt in Birdham
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Matt in Birdham » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:38 pm

McMullan wrote:I use a standard temperature controller with the sensor in a thermowell placed in the wort. I think if I were to plot my fridge temperature and wort temperature data it would look very similar to yours. The fridge temperature plummets during active primary. It's a bit disconcerting when first observed, down to 12*C :shock: , but it seems to work well.
I tried that when I first got the conical but I got massive (by Brewpi standards) oscillations due to lag up to about 1.5C over/under the beer set temp, and for the entire ferment my fridge was either chilling or heating. I would be really interested to see a log of it, actually, to see just how far off it was on average. It was fine, but I do like the precision of the Brewpi and I find the logging provides an awful lot more info than I thought it would - e.g. its very easy to see when ferment starts, how active it is, when it ends etc as you always get these characteristic curves as the fridge set temp goes lower than the beer and then eventually comes up to meet it.

McMullan

Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by McMullan » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:07 pm

I think I see what you are saying, Matt. Interesting. The price is high though, for a contained unit. I'm thinking about getting the 'innards' :D

Cheers

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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Matt in Birdham » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:29 pm

There's a good thread somewhere on Hombrewtalk about making your own arduino based version - lots of fiddling about but a lot cheaper.

Must admit I love my Brewpi. Very hard to justify initially (a few beers and a late night purchase got me over the line :) ) but thoroughly glad I took the plunge. It offers a lot more that just super-accurate temperature control; the best bits for me being temperature profiles and ramps and the logging, which means you get a record of the exact temp profile that all your beers fermented at. Remote control is cool as well, and using Weaved (now Remote.it) it is easy to set up secure control over the internet as well so you can keep an eye on things from work :). I was also surprised how informative the graphs are - e.g. it is easy to see when fermentation has started, how vigorous it is and when it has ended just by looking at the fridge/beer temp diff.

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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:22 pm

While talking about WLP002, a quick question.

I've used it a couple of times, the last TWO brews were a nut brown ale with 002, The first attempt I chucked as it was definitely sour, so I re made with slight change on malts and Also has sour notes and it's having trouble getting bottle conditioned.
I have a stc fridge and a 75L stainless FV with lid . Recently I changed my set up to include a lid on the boiler with a steam pipe to the outside (sick of a dripping garage roof). To prevent it from over boiling with the lid, I have reduced my batch to around 40L, this works fine. I also have included a lardy pump for whirl pool and heat ex. Since I can no longer access my boiler top.

With the extra aeration of blasting the wort through the heat ex and into the FV, I've noticed the fermentation time is much less (could also be due to the lower volume?). It's near gravity at 5 days and tastes great. I then leave it another week at a lower temp to clear. This is when I start getting the sour infection. With a larger head volume in the FV I wonder if this coupled with the quicker ferment is allowing wild yeasts to get in. I sterilise everything with VDP , and use Starsan, so thought it would be OK.
I circulate the fridge air with a computer fan, and am now doubting if this is a good idea.

Any advice very much welcome as I'm not trying another brew until I have some idea of where the problem is.

C
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Kev888 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:56 pm

WLP002, like most liquid yeast does benefit from good aeration of the cold wort, so if this was lacking before then it will very likely be the cause of your faster fermentation (aeration of the warm wort is not ideal). People who don't aerate well may notice little difference with dried yeast, but liquid starters are different. The faster rate may also be due to pitching rate; if you have reduced wort volume but not yeast quantity by the same proportion. Either way, final gravity at between 3 to 5 days is pretty typical for this strain.

The head-space in your fermenter should not lead to any noticeably greater risk of infection; if you think you have one I would look elsewhere for the cause. I don't know VDP, starsan is okay for general use but there are better disinfectants (such as bleach plus subsequent rinsing) if you think there is an infection to deal with. Infections can give rise to sour flavours, and are probably the most likely cause. Although if its more of an astringency that may be due to mash/sparge related problems.

The boiler chimney is fine 'if' its sufficient for the steam and more volatile undesirables like DMS to escape freely. If not then look for excessive DMS flavours, cooked corn is a common description. It can tends more towards vegetables if the DMS is instead caused by infection, but 'sour' isn't a classic result of DMS.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by orlando » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:04 pm

Cheesey wrote:While talking about WLP002, a quick question.

I've used it a couple of times, the last TWO brews were a nut brown ale with 002, The first attempt I chucked as it was definitely sour, so I re made with slight change on malts and Also has sour notes and it's having trouble getting bottle conditioned.
I have a stc fridge and a 75L stainless FV with lid . Recently I changed my set up to include a lid on the boiler with a steam pipe to the outside (sick of a dripping garage roof). To prevent it from over boiling with the lid, I have reduced my batch to around 40L, this works fine. I also have included a lardy pump for whirl pool and heat ex. Since I can no longer access my boiler top.

With the extra aeration of blasting the wort through the heat ex and into the FV, I've noticed the fermentation time is much less (could also be due to the lower volume?). It's near gravity at 5 days and tastes great. I then leave it another week at a lower temp to clear. This is when I start getting the sour infection. With a larger head volume in the FV I wonder if this coupled with the quicker ferment is allowing wild yeasts to get in. I sterilise everything with VDP , and use Starsan, so thought it would be OK.
I circulate the fridge air with a computer fan, and am now doubting if this is a good idea.

Any advice very much welcome as I'm not trying another brew until I have some idea of where the problem is.

C
Whenever I read a problem with infection and in a sentence elsewhere I read heat exchanger or plate chiller, I immediately get an alarm bell ringing. As good as they are at their job unless they are like a commercial one which can be disassembled and properly cleaned, I immediately suspect this. Try flushing with some caustic, you may be surprised at what you find. If the FV is clean and sanitised it shouldn't be the source and because it is stainless easier to keep that way. I have a couple with just as big a head space so I don't think this is the problem. If it turns out to be the HE then a flush with hot PBW followed by a rinse and being pressure cooked at 15 psi for 20 minutes should keep it in near perfect condition.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:17 pm

Thanks for the reply Kev,

I had a typo on the steriliser , it's VWP which is a good one, so I'm told.

I think the pitching rate/ aeration could be an answer, I haven't reduced the amount relative to the lower volume.
I think I might try again, without the 7 day at 12'C to clear, as this has reduced the amount of yeast in the bottles too much. I was suffering from over carbonation (no extra sugar added, but bottling at too high gravity ca. 1012-1015), now the opposite is the case.
It's not astringency , I keep an eye on pH, and can tell if it was that (furry teeth compared to the sour taste, not completely unpleasant but I do like the occasional gueuze`!)

I get a good boil going, hence why I had to reduce the volume as my first attempt did over boil, this was a very light Saltaire Blond type , which was great. Can't decern any veggie or corn . The tube is a 2 inch stainless dairy pipe, with a short rise and downward slope , so shouldn't be the issue it goes like puffin billy!.

I think I'm going to have to strip everything out and deep clean.

Cheers

C
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:23 pm

Thanks Orlando,

As it happens I'm 3 brews in with the plate chiller, first one fine, next two not so.

After the brew put 20L of water in the boiler with VWP, and circulate and heat to around 60'C for 20 mins, then flush with cold water. After that I blast starsan into the chiller with a spray gun. I will however soak in hot VWP, then pressure cook and leave in Starsan, as I seem to remember you saying you do this a while ago.

Cheers

C
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Kev888 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:30 pm

Orlandos point is a very good call I'd missed that - to me, heat exchanger is a generic term. But if its a plate type that has just been introduced to the system and was fine first brew but not subsequently its very likely the cause; being organically clean to start with but contaminated after first use. Though don't neglect other aspects in case its not the only cause.

I like plate chillers, but would always sterilize by baking in an oven or (if it fits) cooking in a pressure cooker. Given time, heat will penetrate even lodged-in particles; personally I would be dubious of using one with chemical disinfectants alone.

That aside, the main issue with plate chillers is prevention of particles getting in, since curing that after it happens is never certain. Make sure you have a suitably fine filter.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Kev888 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:36 pm

BTW, unless you filtered finely, its unlikely you'll get too little yeast in the bottle after only a 7-day wait, even with wlp002 which clears well. If you have low carbonation, its more likely linked to insufficient priming sugars or insufficient warmth/time after priming.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:53 pm

Hi Kev,

I do have a fine hop filter in the boiler to try and avoid issues.

I shall head off to the garage and get boiling/pressure cooking and see what happens.

Edit: I'm not getting it in the pressure cooker, far too long! Gong to soak in VWP , then into the oven.

On the bottling, I've never had a problem with under carbonation before. I don't use priming sugars as I don't mind waiting for the natural sugar to convert. I usually leave 2 weeks at room temp, then 4 to 8 weeks at 10'C (cellar).

I've just gone down to see if I'm making it up!. Brewed 27th Nov. At 20'C 7days gravity 1010 already slightly sour to my mind, temp dropped to 14'C for 7 days, but as it was so cold I turned off fridge and left open door for 3 days. Bottled 11th December, left at room temp until I got told to remove it from the kitchen dinner cos it was Christmas, so taken to cellar 20th Dec.!
And the bottle I've just opened is absolutely flat, tastes better than I thought, has that slight Sam Smiths Yorkshire squares sourness.
Last edited by Cheesey on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by orlando » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:26 pm

Cheesey wrote: And the bottle I've just opened is absolutely flat, tastes better than I thought, has that slight Sam Smiths Yorkshire squares sourness.
The problem with bottling or even casking a degree or two over expected FG is that it depends on the yeast getting to the expected FG. If all the available sugars to that yeast have already been used up then, flat beer. Yeast are lazy b'stards really, they like all those simple monosaccharides but by the time they get to something like maltotriose its bloody hard work. If they are compromised in any way and not up to the job then, flat beer. Not until you are absolutely certain that that particular yeast can get the last two degrees done can you get away with it. Priming with pure sucrose does of course get them up from the couch, result, fizzy beer. If it is a fresh pitch of 002 my confidence would be high, if not..hmm!

By the way, I agree with Kev, the crystallest clearest unfiltered beer is teeming with yeast, just not necessarily yeast prepared to chow down on maltotriose.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
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Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:36 pm

Hi Orlando,

I've never had an issue before, 002 usually if anything makes everything fizzy!. Due to the previous issue of sourness I decided rather than use a fresh pack and work up in 1.5 L of DME wort, I used 2 packs of fresh 002 direct to the FV!.
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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by orlando » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Cheesey wrote:Hi Orlando,

I've never had an issue before, 002 usually if anything makes everything fizzy!. Due to the previous issue of sourness I decided rather than use a fresh pack and work up in 1.5 L of DME wort, I used 2 packs of fresh 002 direct to the FV!.

Of the two, over pitching is much better than under.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Re: Yeast taste from wlp002

Post by Cheesey » Tue May 02, 2017 9:54 pm

Thanks for all the advice, finally chemically cleaned, oven heated and Starsan'd the plate chiller. Brewed a Hop Fiction from Brew Dog recipe, all went well, and bottled it yesterday, no sour notes. Plate chiller has been re cleaned as above and is sat with Starsan in it , until the next time.
Used WPL001 as per the recipe, and got a much lower FG (1005) than I normally do, hope there is still some sugar left to get some fizz in the bottles!.
Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W.C Fields

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