Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

[Eric]

Has anyone else noticed several single postings on contentious subjects from apparent newcomers? The posts are made minutes after joining but never return. I assume this is some alto ego. I'd like to be proved wrong about this.

I don't think that's a new thing. It's just the kind of thing people sometimes do - they maybe have a problem and want solutions, but aren't interested in participating in a community. They just want quick answers without having to give anything back. I wouldn't be surprised if they post the same question on several relevant forums, then never go back except to harvest any replies they might have got.

Yes Jim, it takes all sorts. This fella joined at 2:01 PM, posted 46 minutes later and never came back. Why put that sort of question then not bother to return? I'd suppose his life might have taken a new turn or something had stopped him getting back and hope nothing awful has happened to him, but the frequency of this of late is outside any normal statistical probability I would expect to see within this group. If it was like that I'd be paranoid, for at that rate there would be little chance of anyone getting to a couple of hundred postings before they'd likely be a gonner.

[Sadfield]

Probably more of a football forum thing, but I find this happens a lot, and suspect people sometimes use rogue logins to make their view look more popular than it is.

As for the temp increase on black beers, could it be a run off viscosity issue? perhaps Vaux used an unmalted grain in the grist.

Sent from my C5303 using Tapatalk

[Dave S]

Has anyone else noticed several single postings on contentious subjects from apparent newcomers? The posts are made minutes after joining but never return. I assume this is some alto ego. I'd like to be proved wrong about this.

I don't think that's a new thing. It's just the kind of thing people sometimes do - they maybe have a problem and want solutions, but aren't interested in participating in a community. They just want quick answers without having to give anything back. I wouldn't be surprised if they post the same question on several relevant forums, then never go back except to harvest any replies they might have got.

Yes Jim, it takes all sorts. This fella joined at 2:01 PM, posted 46 minutes later and never came back. Why put that sort of question then not bother to return? I'd suppose his life might have taken a new turn or something had stopped him getting back and hope nothing awful has happened to him, but the frequency of this of late is outside any normal statistical probability I would expect to see within this group. If it was like that I'd be paranoid, for at that rate there would be little chance of anyone getting to a couple of hundred postings before they'd likely be a gonner.

He might have been back, we can't tell unless he'd actually logged in.

[Eric]

Probably more of a football forum thing, but I find this happens a lot, and suspect people sometimes use rogue logins to make their view look more popular than it is.

As for the temp increase on black beers, could it be a run off viscosity issue? perhaps Vaux used an unmalted grain in the grist.

Sent from my C5303 using Tapatalk

Maybe, I don't know except Vaux thought there was need to do differenty to black beers compared pales which was confirmed by the answer. It was also a generic question, not specifying a particular type of black beer. Certainly

When I visited Vaux in Sunderland in 1963 they no longer made dark beers there as far as I could see, just at Kendal and Edinburgh I think, but those were purchased long after the question. Whatever one might conclude, Vaux grew massively after that time. In '63 they still floor malted barley in the brewery as well as kilning it, so they could well have roasted barley.

Certainly unmalted grains were used in that period in large amounts, the process well described by Barnard after his visit to Guinness, a vastly different one to that some Americans will very authoritively inform others.

I must remember to try it.

[mabrungard]

It doesn't appear that you are doing anything about your water's alkalinity and managing the pH of your wort. High wort pH that arises from using alkaline mashing and sparging water will result in higher beer pH and that can dull the beer flavor and impart harsh flavors. I invite you to review the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to learn the why and how of water treatment.

In addition, I've had problems with minor tannin extraction in my beers when I extended the sparging gravity cutoff to below 1015. So your 1010 final runoff could be a source. I now purposely reserve about 1/3 of my calculated sparging water volume and don't add it to the tun. I use that reserved water to top off the kettle to produce my desired pre-boil volume. My tannin and astringency problem was solved with that approach.

[Eric]

It doesn't appear that you are doing anything about your water's alkalinity and managing the pH of your wort. High wort pH that arises from using alkaline mashing and sparging water will result in higher beer pH and that can dull the beer flavor and impart harsh flavors. I invite you to review the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to learn the why and how of water treatment.

In addition, I've had problems with minor tannin extraction in my beers when I extended the sparging gravity cutoff to below 1015. So your 1010 final runoff could be a source. I now purposely reserve about 1/3 of my calculated sparging water volume and don't add it to the tun. I use that reserved water to top off the kettle to produce my desired pre-boil volume. My tannin and astringency problem was solved with that approach.

Absolutely Martin, alkalinity is the enemy, the cause of so many brewing problems when water isn't correctly treated. Your advised solution will solve such problems with certainty for some and reduce it for others with higher alkaline water. How do you treat your sparge liquor?

It is possible to safely sparge to lower gravity runnings with correct treatment, I can and frequently do. As you say, alkalinity is the problem in sparging, just as in the mash. pH of liquor is no measure of alkalinity, but some advise adjusting sparge liquor to a particular pH to be the cause of such problems in many cases. The vital pH measure at this stage is that of the runnings, which should be pH less than 5.6. So the alkalinity of the sparge water should be measured and adjusted to suit the grist which will be continuously diluted in the process and then regularly measure gravity and pH of the runnings.

I brewed on Wednesday past, and at 52 litres, runnings were 1008, by 57 litres 1007 and at the target volume of 60 litres was 1005 when pH was 5.58. Obviously little extraction was obtained from those last 8 litres and maybe the sparge liquor should have beeen simply put into the kettle, but why not get the last drop.

[Wonkydonkey]

I call these's peeps vampires, blood sucking parasites. And that's take all the goodness and give nothing back, on to the next victim. But the internet is full to the brim, but.. And I say but!!, some times you get a real gem that comes back, to give more than what's taken. But most times You only really have Look to see if they say anything in the guestbook/new member bit

But that's how I see it,, your mileage may vary...
Cheers
WD

Ps, Eric your a diamond

[simon12]

Nothing to add to the conversation how its been going but I had a Surrey hills Greensand IPA in the weatherspoon last weekend and it fitted this threads subject perfectly, ie all the hop flavour was in the aftertaste and harsh and bitter.

[Eric]

Nothing to add to the conversation how its been going but I had a Surrey hills Greensand IPA in the weatherspoon last weekend and it fitted this threads subject perfectly, ie all the hop flavour was in the aftertaste and harsh and bitter.

Oh, I don't know about not adding anything, you've got my head spinning already.

Greensand is an historically important layer of earth as far as beer is concerned and makes me wonder about what you found as I would hope anyone using that name might know something about water for brewing. It's difficult to know precisely what waters were used for brewing in earlier times, we seem to get most information on this matter from America for some reason. Anyway, the waters under London used in the 19th century for beer varied vastly. What was in the clay could be almost any mix possible while that in the chalk aquifer varied by depth and proximity to sources such as rivers, some of it having been there from previous ice ages and influenced by ion exchange. Below the chalk is a layer of greensand which runs down from the surface outside the London Basin, through which fresh rainwater quickly passes and is of a different composition to that in the chalk. One of the irst breweries to first drill into the greensand was Meux, the famous porter brewer whose vats burst to cause the flood.

[scuppeteer]

Greensand is, as you say Eric, a fine water to brew with. Surrey Hills Brewery and more locally (to me) Westerham brewery are able to tap into it. Fremlins in Maidstone used 2 different wells for brewing. From my research into the brewery the well called Boarley was brewing quality, whilst Cossington was for cleaning. Considering the proximity of the brewery to river Medway the Boarley well must have been a much deeper bore. The geology map of the ridge is very interesting to look at as it stretches across these breweries immediate location. All the way from Petersfield in the West meandering a bit down to Hythe on the Kent coast.

[simon12]

Thanks never new that

[mfuggles]

Sorry about delay in replying.
I am based in Melbourne Australia but I am from the UK and grew up on real ale.
I have decided to keep the recipe constant until I get this right so Breakspear is the clone.
Will try and work out how to update profile.
I am sporadic but will continue to post and value your contributions.
Thank you for all of your replies this has given me some ideas I had not concidered.
I have gone back to the beer books recently and read about the hot and cold break in the Big Book of Brewing and the harsh bitter taste that can be imparted. This also sounds like my problem. I always just boiled for 90mins and assumed that was good enough and never checked for the Hot break. My boil is only rolling with the lid on and as soon as it's off it's a simmer so I think this could also be a weekness. I brewed again on the weekend taking some of the advise given earlier.
1. I lowered my sparging temp to 72deg C and did not go below 1010 plus tasted all wort which had no harshness and was sweet.
2. I checked for the hot break after 90mins and it was not clear. It was clear ish but still had some small bits floating around. I left it for longer 2hrs and this was improved but it still was not bright with no bits floating. I think I will give myself more time on my next brew day and boil for 3hrs to be sure and take another look at the sample.
Also realised I do another freaky thing at the 90min boil time....... I know you are thinking can this guy get anymore freaky...... but I start to worry about the final gravity and dump in a few litres of nearly boiling water from a spare hot liquor tank which has the effect of crashing the boil.... will stop doing this on next brew.
3. Also used some Irish moss substitute which after I had rapidly cooled the beer left me with gelatine floating clouds not sure if that's a good thing.
4. Am really watching the ferment temp.
Will keep you posted on progress or lack of.

[matthuds]

I had a similar issue. I treated my tap water for Chlorine and measured and adjusted CaCo3 but it wasn't till I switched to bottled water that things improved.

[Jim]

Thanks for getting back to us mfuggles.

It shouldn't be necessary to boil for 3 hours to get an acceptable beer - many people (and commercial breweries) only boil for one hour. I really think your problem lies elsewhere.

The Big Book of Brewing (which I have an old dog-eared copy of myself ) was a great book for its time, but knowledge has moved on, and I always take some of the theories advanced in there with a large pinch of salt (though much of it is spot on of course).

Try just going back to basics and doing a straightforward brew with no mucking about with extra techniques or stages (but just make sure your water is OK, as already suggested above). The more things you change at once, the harder it is to know what made the difference.

[Horden Hillbilly]

My boil is only rolling with the lid on

At the very least, you should be venting your brew during the boil to let the "volatiles" escape. If they're settling on the inside of your boiler lid & falling back into the brew, that can cause it to be harsh tasting. Maybe crack part of your lid open to allow the steam to escape.