Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

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mfuggles

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by mfuggles » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:54 am

Jim
Regarding temp control I just used a digital thermometer strapped to the side of the fermenter. I have a reverse cycle aircon unit which I set to 20. I then just kept an eye on the temp which seemed reasonably stable within a degree. The yeast was scavenged from a bottle of Scotch ale as it's not a bad drop and thought would be good. I did get a good clean fermentation and have used this strain before on brews which have turned out ok.
I think my temp control could be improved further though.
On my recent brew I tried the wort from the mash and it was great no harsh taste. I also tried it after the boil and it had the same harsh taste which ends up spoiling some of .... most of my beers. This was a bit of a breakthrough though as now I know when it appears and seems to point to the problem occurring somewhere in the boil. Or does all wort taste like that after boil ? I had never tried it before.
I use hop pellets and reduced quantity by 10% but otherwise went with recipe quantity right type of hops but alpha acid could have been higher I guess but I'm not convinced it's the hops causing the problem.
Anyway will be a while now before I can brew again. Thanks for input

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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Dave S » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:18 am

mfuggles wrote:Jim
Regarding temp control I just used a digital thermometer strapped to the side of the fermenter. I have a reverse cycle aircon unit which I set to 20. I then just kept an eye on the temp which seemed reasonably stable within a degree. The yeast was scavenged from a bottle of Scotch ale as it's not a bad drop and thought would be good. I did get a good clean fermentation and have used this strain before on brews which have turned out ok.
I think my temp control could be improved further though.
On my recent brew I tried the wort from the mash and it was great no harsh taste. I also tried it after the boil and it had the same harsh taste which ends up spoiling some of .... most of my beers. This was a bit of a breakthrough though as now I know when it appears and seems to point to the problem occurring somewhere in the boil. Or does all wort taste like that after boil ? I had never tried it before.
I use hop pellets and reduced quantity by 10% but otherwise went with recipe quantity right type of hops but alpha acid could have been higher I guess but I'm not convinced it's the hops causing the problem.
Anyway will be a while now before I can brew again. Thanks for input
At what point did you taste the post-mash wort? Before or after the sparge? It is known that high alkaline sparge water is likely to extract harsh tasting taninins from the grain. Sparge water should contain no more than about 20 mg/L of alkalinity as CaCO3.
Best wishes

Dave

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Jim
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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Jim » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:40 am

Horden Hillbilly wrote:
mfuggles wrote: My boil is only rolling with the lid on
At the very least, you should be venting your brew during the boil to let the "volatiles" escape. If they're settling on the inside of your boiler lid & falling back into the brew, that can cause it to be harsh tasting. Maybe crack part of your lid open to allow the steam to escape.
Whoah! Well spotted HHB! I missed that.

mfuggles - don't boil with the lid on. A less-than-vigorous boil is preferable.
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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Normski » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:08 am

What is the exact recipe you are useing and any additions ?
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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Wonkydonkey » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:26 pm

I'm pleased to be proved wrong


Good to see you back mfuggles

Ps my mrs says to me always give more than you take.......lol
To Busy To Add,

yourbrew

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by yourbrew » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:28 pm

There are some good points already made by other people, I'd personally mention the following:
- 80C is too high for sparge. According to John Palmer's How To Brew, 78C is the highest you should go.
- Try to boil with an open lid, so the DMS precursors can be released, this doesn't actually help with the bitterness but it helps with the overall results.
- Make sure your false-bottom is working right, because if some grains make it to the boil kettle they can release tannins which cause some astringency or harsh bitterness.
- Take a look at your recipe, some dark malts create bitterness.
- Make a proper whirlpool, so all the hops and proteins can be left behind and only clean wort enters the FV.

Good luck!

mfuggles

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by mfuggles » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:43 am

Hi Guys
Ok the problem sadly has been with me for 20 years on and off. This is a purple brewing patch I'm in at present as I have some time to repeat the process and track the problem. Currently I have three brews in fermenters all the same but slightly different processes the most notable being the last with the lower sparge temp although I feel this part is ok having tasted the wort. I've moved house several times over this period and obviously have had successfully outcomes probably 2 out of five brews which is not crash hot. The point is the water has changed from Bore water which was ok for human consumption... although those who have tried some of my beers disagree .... rain water is what I'm using now as this is our mains supply and has made some good brews. Having said all of that I think going back to basics is probably a good idea.
I also stir the crud from the sides of the boiler back in during the boil as I always think this is hops etc is this wrong ?
Thanks for replies.
I'll let you know how the three brews turn out in due course.

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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by beer baron » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:12 pm

Hi mcfuggles
I had a similar problem which I put down to 2 possible things
1 I stopped sparging altogether
2 I started to add a third of my mashing water as RO water to reduce PH problems in the mash. I know that you may not want to but try a brew with no sparge just to see if that is the problem you can always counteract the loss of efficiency by upping the grain bill at least it will show if it is a sparging issue
The RO water will help if it is a PH mashing problem I find this a quick and easy way rather than starting full water treatments as it is becoming more of a science and I am a humble brewer and not bothered about getting too deep into that kind of issue

mfuggles

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by mfuggles » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:30 am

Hi Dave,
Just working my way through the posts.
I tasted the wort after sparging and it was sweet no sign of harshness.
Tasted after boil when cooled prior to ferment and the taste was there with hops as they were added.
So a bit tricky to identify amongst the hop bitterness but the feeling is it's there.
In the past I did not taste pre fermented wort at this point.
Mostly I try it after fermentation just before barreling and it has harsh flavours. Sometimes this all disappears during the ageing process other times the back end harshness remains ruining the beer which otherwise tasts great.

AnthonyUK

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:10 am

Some things to try to eliminate potential problems.

Use bottled water for one batch e.g. Tesco Ashbeck which is low in bicarbonates.
Do a BIAB full volume mash so no sparge and low risk of any grains making it to the boil.
Try a 10min hop schedule where approx. 50% of your IBU is from a 60min addition and the rest no earlier then 10 mins from end of boil.

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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Bigbud78 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:59 am

mfuggles wrote:Hi Dave,
Just working my way through the posts.
I tasted the wort after sparging and it was sweet no sign of harshness.
Tasted after boil when cooled prior to ferment and the taste was there with hops as they were added.
So a bit tricky to identify amongst the hop bitterness but the feeling is it's there.
In the past I did not taste pre fermented wort at this point.
Mostly I try it after fermentation just before barreling and it has harsh flavours. Sometimes this all disappears during the ageing process other times the back end harshness remains ruining the beer which otherwise tasts great.
Ive got this with a beer at the moment and have had it previously, everything is fine until after the boil. I'm convinced its hop related, the last beer I had issues with was ok after a few weeks. The current one came out the fermenter a week ago, up front it tastes great then I get a harsh bitter taste at the end that almost tastes sour.

I'm going to try and filter more of the hop sludge out, convinced its that.

AnthonyUK

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:50 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:Ive got this with a beer at the moment and have had it previously, everything is fine until after the boil. I'm convinced its hop related, the last beer I had issues with was ok after a few weeks. The current one came out the fermenter a week ago, up front it tastes great then I get a harsh bitter taste at the end that almost tastes sour.

I'm going to try and filter more of the hop sludge out, convinced its that.
Are you cooling your wort to under 80°c quickly after the boil?
If not it could be something similar to what the no-chill guys found with continued isomerisation post boil.

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Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by Bigbud78 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:25 pm

AnthonyUK wrote:
Bigbud78 wrote:Ive got this with a beer at the moment and have had it previously, everything is fine until after the boil. I'm convinced its hop related, the last beer I had issues with was ok after a few weeks. The current one came out the fermenter a week ago, up front it tastes great then I get a harsh bitter taste at the end that almost tastes sour.

I'm going to try and filter more of the hop sludge out, convinced its that.
Are you cooling your wort to under 80°c quickly after the boil?
If not it could be something similar to what the no-chill guys found with continued isomerisation post boil.
I use a copper immersion chiller, takes a min or two usually.

mfuggles

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by mfuggles » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:25 am

Thanks for posts now have heaps to work on.
The boiler lid will be off for all future brews.

The recipe is as follows.

Water - Rain Water

Grain
Marris Otter 3300g
Crystal Malt 340g
Black Malt 40g

Sugar & Hops
White table Sugar 240g
Fuggles Hop Pellets 68g (Alpha Acid 5.2%)
East Kent Golding Hops 31g (Alpha Acid 4.6%)
last 15min
East Kent Golding Hops 15g (Alpha Acid 4.6%)
Irish Moss 1tsp

Yeast - Red Hill Scotch Ale Scavenged

mfuggles

Re: Harsh bitter Taste at end of flavour profile

Post by mfuggles » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:28 am

Also Mash PH 5 - 6 band with universal Test paper closer to 5

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