Late hopping for bitterness

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Tomp
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Late hopping for bitterness

Post by Tomp » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:39 pm

Heres a question then.

I'm planning a Belgian(ish) White beer for Christmas. Full of coriander and orange flavours - so should be festive...

On the subject of bittering, I'm planning on not adding any hops (Willamettes and Cascades) until 15 minutes from the end and then adding upwards of 130g of hops at 5 minute intervals. I'm forecasting an IBU of about 22.

Is my logic right? Doing the above will enhance the hops without adding any astringency.
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Kev888
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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by Kev888 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:22 pm

There isn't anything wrong in principle with achieving bittering from late hops; it is less economic for the bitterness but maximises hop flavour - whether that is appropriate for your beer is down to your preferences.

The post-boil regime may be important though. Alpha acids are still isomerised until the wort is below 80c, yet a lot of software over-looks that in its utilisation calculations. I knew this, but have recently come to believe it is potentially a bigger omission than i'd realised. It may not make a huge difference for normal amounts of late hops or if you chill to <80c quickly, but for lots of late hops sitting in very hot wort for some time after the boil then it could become quite significant.

I wouldn't have said that bittering hops particularly give astringency though, could you be getting this from somewhere else?
Kev

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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by orlando » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:34 pm

Kev888 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:22 pm
I wouldn't have said that bittering hops particularly give astringency though, could you be getting this from somewhere else?
Yes he could, if the mash pH is over circa 5.6 or more the resulting wort is likely to extract harshness from the hops in the boil. Mash pH is such an underated perameter in home brewing but one that impacts all the way down the line.
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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by Tomp » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:02 pm

orlando wrote:
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:22 pm
I wouldn't have said that bittering hops particularly give astringency though, could you be getting this from somewhere else?
Yes he could, if the mash pH is over circa 5.6 or more the resulting wort is likely to extract harshness from the hops in the boil. Mash pH is such an underated perameter in home brewing but one that impacts all the way down the line.
The mash should be the right Ph so hopefully no worries there.


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It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

Tomp
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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by Tomp » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:04 pm

Kev888 wrote:There isn't anything wrong in principle with achieving bittering from late hops; it is less economic for the bitterness but maximises hop flavour - whether that is appropriate for your beer is down to your preferences.

The post-boil regime may be important though. Alpha acids are still isomerised until the wort is below 80c, yet a lot of software over-looks that in its utilisation calculations. I knew this, but have recently come to believe it is potentially a bigger omission than i'd realised. It may not make a huge difference for normal amounts of late hops or if you chill to <80c quickly, but for lots of late hops sitting in very hot wort for some time after the boil then it could become quite significant.

I wouldn't have said that bittering hops particularly give astringency though, could you be getting this from somewhere else?
Thanks. Economy is not an issue - I want lovely hops and aroma, so hope this works. Going to crash cool as well, so that should resolve that issue.

That’s what I love about Homebrew - you can make what you really fancy.


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It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

nastyphoenix

Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by nastyphoenix » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:28 pm

Perfectly acceptable and is often a practice carried out by commercial breweries who want a big hop hit. Beer Smith can work out how the whirlpool additions affect the IBU.

sandimas
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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by sandimas » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:50 pm

If you're adding hops only 15mins from the end, does that mean you're only doing a 15min boil? Doesn't seem much point in boiling for, say, 45mins with no hops, and then adding the 15min hops - or have I missed something?

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Late hopping for bitterness

Post by wezzel01 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:05 pm

sandimas wrote:If you're adding hops only 15mins from the end, does that mean you're only doing a 15min boil? Doesn't seem much point in boiling for, say, 45mins with no hops, and then adding the 15min hops - or have I missed something?
That’s exactly it. Because the hops are boiling for less time you need more of then to extract the equivalent amount of bitterness. They do, however, impart far more aroma than from hops that have been boiled for an hour or so.

I’ve made some Brewdog inspired beers where hops are only added in large quantities at 15m, 5m and at flameout and they turned out great.

You still boil for at least an hour to achieve the required FG and to reach a hot break but only add the hops at the end.

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Kev888
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Re: Late hopping for bitterness

Post by Kev888 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:53 pm

sandimas wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:50 pm
Doesn't seem much point in boiling for, say, 45mins with no hops, and then adding the 15min hops - or have I missed something?
Hop utilisation is only one of many aspects of the boil. Others include sterilising the wort, causing a good hot break, creation and evaporation of DMS, formation of melanoidins, increase in gravity and deepening of colour.

The time needed to do everything properly is (as always) open to some debate, but either way some of these things take a while. So it is normal to boil much longer than late hop additions, even if there are no bittering/full-boil hops to utilise.
Kev

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