Saison

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Paddington
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Saison

Post by Paddington » Wed May 02, 2018 8:56 pm

I made a Saison using James Morton’s recipe. He suggests decanting the brew after the saison yeast has flocullated and adding champagne yeast to dry it out further. I did this and it was an excellent brew, one of my favourites, so I’m reluctant to fiddle with it, but I’m just reading Chris White’s book on yeast and his suggestion is to add the second yeast about three days into primary fermentation. What do people think?

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Jocky
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Re: Saison

Post by Jocky » Thu May 03, 2018 7:04 am

Most of the esters you want are produced in the first 3 days, and if you leave it too late it's a harsh environment for new yeast to go into, so I'd go with Chris White's suggestion.

As an aside I've found that WLP565 will chew on sugars down to 1.003 and below if you mash long and low and keep the fermentation open, warming it up after 72 hours. Champagne yeast can take it lower, I'm just not sure I'd want to.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Saison

Post by Paddington » Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am

Thanks, Jockey. Your reasoning is the same as Chris White’s. I used the same yeast (second generation having pitched it into a Bierce de Garde first) also starting cool getting it pretty hot and I reached 1..08. I’ll try the long slow mash next time. How do you manage an open fermentation? My current fermenting ‘space’ is not very sterile, I’d be taking bits of Lego out of it and our friendly mouse might get pished.

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Sadfield
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Re: Saison

Post by Sadfield » Thu May 03, 2018 9:00 am

As an alternative to champagne yeast, you could dual pitch a diastatic Saison strain such as WY3711, Belle Saison or Safale BE134. Perhaps in a ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 in favour of your primary strain to the diastatic strain.

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Re: Saison

Post by Paddington » Thu May 03, 2018 9:25 am

That looks interesting. Chris White’s suggestion was to follow up Saidon with WLP001 which I’m struggling with as a concept.

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Sadfield
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Re: Saison

Post by Sadfield » Thu May 03, 2018 10:54 am

Far be it from me to argue with Chris White, but I would've expected all Saison yeasts to ferment out to below 1.005 on their own, given enough time and temperature.

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Jocky
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Re: Saison

Post by Jocky » Thu May 03, 2018 1:12 pm

Open ferment can be done by just cracking the lid on a bucket or covering the normal airlock or bung hole with foil. Alternatively you could clip a clean tea towel over the top of it.

I cover the bung hole on my fermenters with foil until the ferment is 80% done then add an airlock.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Saison

Post by Paddington » Thu May 03, 2018 3:15 pm

OK, so just a tiny contact with the air, then?

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Jocky
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Re: Saison

Post by Jocky » Thu May 03, 2018 4:15 pm

Yes. Enough to let the CO2 concentration equalise with the atmosphere (or it may be Oxygen, I don't know which is the problem factor, CO2 toxicity or O2 depletion, but ensuring the yeast has access to atmospheric air composition seems to stop it stalling).

Even with a bit of foil on air will be able to escape and the concentration of CO2/O2 in the fermenter will be pretty much the same as atmospheric.

The same gas equalisation does happen with an airlock in place too (via the liquid in the airlock), but it’s a lot slower - enough to make the yeast stop fermenting.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Sadfield
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Re: Saison

Post by Sadfield » Thu May 03, 2018 5:08 pm

I was under the impression it was purely a back pressure issue, increasing osmotic pressure, preventing yeast functions through the cell wall. Could very well be wrong though.

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Re: Saison

Post by Paddington » Thu May 03, 2018 5:11 pm

Interesting. I’ve just had a brew erupt through my airlock so I suppose that’s now open fermenting in its own way!!

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Re: Saison

Post by f00b4r » Thu May 03, 2018 9:04 pm

Paddington wrote:Interesting. I’ve just had a brew erupt through my airlock so I suppose that’s now open fermenting in its own way!!
I believe that what Jocky is referring to is specific to the WLP565 strain and not a general comment on Saison yeasts, although I may be corrected.

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Re: Saison

Post by Sadfield » Thu May 03, 2018 9:29 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Paddington wrote:Interesting. I’ve just had a brew erupt through my airlock so I suppose that’s now open fermenting in its own way!!
I believe that what Jocky is referring to is specific to the WLP565 strain and not a general comment on Saison yeasts, although I may be corrected.
Yes, definitely an issue with the Brasserie Dupont strain. It gets its own special section in Phil Markowskis Farmhouse Ales book. Reportedly a mixed strain, with one dominant strain that is possibly a red wine yeast that has adapted to beer brewing. Sharing high temperature tolerance and Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) requirements with red wine yeast.

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Re: Saison

Post by McMullan » Fri May 04, 2018 9:25 am

Sadfield wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:08 pm
I was under the impression it was purely a back pressure issue, increasing osmotic pressure, preventing yeast functions through the cell wall. Could very well be wrong though.

‘Logic’ often misleads to erroneous conclusions. Your theory doesn’t hold true during vigorous primary fermentation, by which time the back pressure has long been promoted, if an airlock is being used. Ethanol, CO2 and lipid deficient membranes (associated with low O2?) increasingly impact the performance of yeast cells as fermentation progresses. Some strains are more sensitive to the higher CO2 levels promoted in ‘closed’ fermentations. The back pressure itself is not the issue. In fact, yeast cells are capable of maintaining their internal pressure, especially at these levels. Some even store CO2 internally under surprisingly high pressures. A cell wall, with properties described as being ‘similar to reinforced concrete’ helps too.
Last edited by McMullan on Fri May 04, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saison

Post by McMullan » Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 am

I haven't heard of champagne yeast being used to ferment Saison. Traditionally, the peasant farmers used champagne bottles thrown out by the rich folk. It's possible some remaining dregs in these bottles elevated the carbonation level some. Quite lucky they were champagne bottles, I guess.

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