Improving English Ales

[Jim]

I have a brew going at the moment (made on Normski's Braumeister) with Mangrove Jack Burton Union, and I have a feeling that one will give similar results to Windsor but is a better settler. I'll know in a few weeks!

Is that the one renamed ‘liberty bell’? If so, I’ve made a couple of beers with this (one has been just a week in the barrel). I’ve not used Windsor, so can’t compare but I think the results with LB were pretty good. I thought it was a step up from S04, which I’ve used almost exclusively in the past (and I know has many detractors). Has similar attenuation to S04 and settles out nicely in the fermenter. Nice malt flavours. Interested to hear your results, assuming it is the same yeast

I wasn't aware of that, but google says yes.

[Dennis King]

Agree with Rob about the yeast. If you can't get a decent established strain from a local brewery WLP002 is my go to yeast for English beers.

[HTH1975]

Based on having very soft water, do you know your chloride and sulphate levels? The lack of perceived bitterness/bite could partly be low amounts of sulphates and/or a balanced chloride:sulphate ratio.

Most dry ale yeasts will attenuate quite high compared to the likes of Wyeast Yorkshire which averages 68-70%. S-04 for instance will get 75% quite easily. I do like S-04 and it would be my go-to dry yeast for this type of beer. If you want less attenuation, increase your mash temperature a bit (say 67C) and use 5% carapils/Caramalt/light crystal plus the same torrified wheat.

I’d ferment up at 22-24C for some esters too.

Emulating a pro-brewery method is the tough part and it plays a reasonable part if we’re talking Yorkshire bitter. It is quite normal to add the vast majority of hops at the end of the boil, then have a ‘hop stand’ for 30 mins before casting to FV. It will take 45-60 mins typically before all of the wort has gone through the heat exchanger into the FV. In that time, the hops have been stewing in boiling wort for upto 1.5 hours. My view is that this is the major part homebrewers miss when trying to recreate bitters. Just add your finishing hops at the end of the boil, then start your immersion chiller off about 30-45 mins later (mine tends to take 30 mins to chill wort down to 20C). 2-3g/L is pretty standard, which gives you 50-75g of finishing hops.

[dave_h]

WARNING! Don't connect these LPG regulators directly to a CO2 cylinder. They are only rated for 10BAR max (not the about 60BAR found in a CO2 cylinder). They are fitted as "secondary" regulators down stream of the bottle or cylinder regulator you might already have (the "primary" regulator).

I was just thinking about this but thanks for highlighting it for me and others

I will be away from home (work ) for the next couple of weeks so I cant test it but I think my regulator only kicks in at around 0.5bar which is about 7 psi. So this will result in overcarbed beer.

Assume the spudding valve wont work as it does not kick in till a too high level, I will still give it a test on a keg.

I think the main two issues for me would be the temp of the fridge, as I said before its also used for other beers and sometimes food (got to keep the wife happy).

Ive also run some numbers for hose lengths/widths based on heights to taps and I might have some issues. I could have to run a shorter line and keep the tap in the fridge, less than ideal but I could live with it.

I will probably get the same regulator.

Based on having very soft water, do you know your chloride and sulphate levels? The lack of perceived bitterness/bite could partly be low amounts of sulphates and/or a balanced chloride:sulphate ratio.

Yes I know them but dont have them to hand. I will aim for a chloride ration of 2:1 I think. Adjusting the water has helped quite a bit with my ales but I think I had over carbed the keg too much that had lots of metallic taste to it.

Emulating a pro-brewery method is the tough part and it plays a reasonable part if we’re talking Yorkshire bitter. It is quite normal to add the vast majority of hops at the end of the boil, then have a ‘hop stand’ for 30 mins before casting to FV. It will take 45-60 mins typically before all of the wort has gone through the heat exchanger into the FV. In that time, the hops have been stewing in boiling wort for upto 1.5 hours. My view is that this is the major part homebrewers miss when trying to recreate bitters. Just add your finishing hops at the end of the boil, then start your immersion chiller off about 30-45 mins later (mine tends to take 30 mins to chill wort down to 20C). 2-3g/L is pretty standard, which gives you 50-75g of finishing hops.

I have been thinking/reading along the same lines. I use an immersion chiller and get down to 80C in about 5 mins and then to pitching temp in 20mins.

I will have another crack with the following schedule and if it does not work try whirlpooling again.

4.00 kg Maris Otter (Crisp) (7.9 EBC) Grain 5 90.9 %
0.10 kg Crystal Extra Dark - 120L (Crisp) (236.4 EBC) Grain 6 2.5 %
0.20 kg Wheat, Torrified (3.3 EBC) Grain 7 4.5 %
20.00 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 13.0 IBUs
20.00 g Challenger 6.1 [6.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 9 13.2 IBUs
10.00 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 3.2 IBUs
10.00 g Goldings, East Kent 5.1 [5.10 %] - Boil 10.0… Hop 11 2.7 IBUs

Many thanks

[HTH1975]

For bitters you’ll want your sulphates higher than chlorides if you want that typical bite. A 1:1.5 ratio is the lower end and 1:2.5 the upper end, imo.

[dave_h]

For bitters you’ll want your sulphates higher than chlorides if you want that typical bite. A 1:1.5 ratio is the lower end and 1:2.5 the upper end, imo.

Yes you are right, had the terminology the wrong way around. Good that you noticed as I need to change what I had in my recipe, it was totally messed up in Beersmith.

[dave_h]

I have come up with a cunning plan (need to say it in your head like Boldrick) regarding my hopping rates.

Im thinking of making a larger 30L batch then splitting it.

10L Boil and chill as per receipe
10L Boil and chill and keg hop
The above two can share a fermenter

10L Boil, chill and whirlpool hops at 80C for 30mins

I would be interested to see the difference between all three but especially the keg hop and whirlpool

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

To the OP:
If you are looking for that cask effect, focus on simplicity. Use one quality malt, maybe some crystal.

There’s a lot of English ale out there that is just pale malt and caramel.

Like others have said, dial in your planned IBU for ~28-30 IBU. Use English hops, late in the boil, skip the dry hop, it’s not essential.

Get the beer bright. Nucleation points are not helpful, beers that I have actually lagered and fined came very close to the cask effect when conditioned right.

Focus on condition and serving temp. A poly pin gets you a lot of the way there

[dave_h]

Thanks for the tips TheSumOfAllBeer

Get the beer bright. Nucleation points are not helpful, beers that I have actually lagered and fined came very close to the cask effect when conditioned right.

Focus on condition and serving temp. A poly pin gets you a lot of the way there

I have not normally been fining/cold crashing my ales but I was thinking of doing it this time.

Can I ask what you have found works, im torn between 10C and 1C for the crash temp, time wise probably leave them for about 3 days.

[Jim]

.............Focus on condition and serving temp.....

I agree 100% with that. A lot of what we perceive as the 'cask experience' comes down to just that. Using a beer engine rather than a cornie and tap helps to preserve the correct level of carbonation which can result in that typical cask mouthfeel.

[Normski]

I have a brew going at the moment (made on Normski's Braumeister) with Mangrove Jack Burton Union, and I have a feeling that one will give similar results to Windsor but is a better settler. I'll know in a few weeks!

Is that the one renamed ‘liberty bell’? If so, I’ve made a couple of beers with this (one has been just a week in the barrel). I’ve not used Windsor, so can’t compare but I think the results with LB were pretty good. I thought it was a step up from S04, which I’ve used almost exclusively in the past (and I know has many detractors). Has similar attenuation to S04 and settles out nicely in the fermenter. Nice malt flavours. Interested to hear your results, assuming it is the same yeast

I wasn't aware of that, but google says yes.

Its not the same yeast. The Burton Union yeast is M79. The Liberty Bell is M36.

[Jim]

Is that the one renamed ‘liberty bell’? If so, I’ve made a couple of beers with this (one has been just a week in the barrel). I’ve not used Windsor, so can’t compare but I think the results with LB were pretty good. I thought it was a step up from S04, which I’ve used almost exclusively in the past (and I know has many detractors). Has similar attenuation to S04 and settles out nicely in the fermenter. Nice malt flavours. Interested to hear your results, assuming it is the same yeast

I wasn't aware of that, but google says yes.

Its not the same yeast. The Burton Union yeast is M79. The Liberty Bell is M36.

M79 isn't listed on their site any more - https://mangrovejacks.com/collections/c ... ies-yeasts . Presumably discontinued?

EDIT: many HB shops are listing Liberty Bell as the 'replacement' for M79, e.g. https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/mangrove- ... l-ale-m36/ and on many HB forums people are calling them equivalent, but this is probably only conjecture. There's nothing on the MJ website to even suggest using M36 as a substitute for M79 (as far as I can see).

[clarets7]

Comparing the characteristics and descriptions between the 2015 booklet and the current booklet they are almost word for word between M79 Burton Union and M36 Liberty Bell. If it's not actually the same yeast it must be very similar. The same applies to M07 British Ale Yeast and M42 New World Strong Ale, maybe descriptions not quite word for word though.

[Kev888]

It has all been said, but just to reiterate: a good English style beer or ale is a traditional beast, and a lot of recent influences aren't in character.

It may sound obvious, but British styles are actually quite diverse (some bitter, some malty, some dark etc.) So pick a style you really like.

Ignore US-centric water preferences and make sure you have plenty of calcium (also sulphate and chloride at decent levels; their ratio is to some degree down to preference, they aren't all sulphate-dominant, even the bitters).

Use a simple recipe of British malt, hops, and the yeast in particular should suit the style of beer as traditionally as possible, with plenty of residual body and flavour (not clean or over-attenuated).

Don't overcarbonate. Ideally prime but if you force carbonate then be subtle - aim at or below the lowest levels normally recommended in carbonation charts. Often the residual activity will get you part way there, so allow for that.

Serve at about 13C, don't over-chill it. If you don't have a beer engine, you can try what someone named a 'pocket beer engine' - a syringe used to draw a little beer from the glass and then squirt it back to give it a bit of life.

You can of course diverge from this according to preference, and these are simply mine. But IMO its a fairly good place to start.

[RobP]

Allow me to throw something into the ring at this point...

I suppose most know this blog by Ron Pattinson:
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/

He posts a lot of historic recipes, which are listed here:
http://www.unholymess.com/blog/lets-brew/comment-page-1

I think these recipes are worth perusal, there may be few you'd like to make. If you do, please consider how many include crystal malt or torrified wheat and how many do not include sugar.

A grist for a typical bitter of mine would look something like 43% Maris otter pale malt; 43% Flagon pale malt; 5% flaked maize; 9% sugar. Colour adjusted by the colour of the sugar - raw cane, light brown, dark brown etc. I mess around with hop schedules quite a bit but typically it would be no more than two varieties, 50% fo 60 mins; 25% for 15 mins; 25% for 5 mins. For a sub 4% abv bitter I mash at 69 degrees C. I know it isn't popular with many but the best dried yeast I've found is ESB (I think Windsor is more suited to mild). I also have soft water, for bitter I just add Calcium Sulphate to the amount calculated by the spread sheet (Bruin Water - 7g in 15 litres of water in my last bitter) to achieve the right mash pH. Seems to work.

I detest using my King Keg at times because it's a real pain in the arse to get it sealed properly, it leaks at the S30 valve or around the cap unless get assembling it dead right. Sometimes I have to make a second attempt with priming sugar but when I do get it working properly the beer served isn't too far away from what I get in a pub. I believe the S30 valve holds pressure at around 10psi or a bit less? is it possible to naturally condition beer and keep it in a corny at 8-10 psi? Certainly, I think fairly low carbonation and natural conditioning is essential for British ale.