Low mash pH

[killer]

Bit confused, Cobnut! You support PeeBee in his thought that home brewers shouldn't have to worry about water treatment. Then you say you brewed beers which went down the drain until you treated your water with CRS. Now you win medals in national competitions.

Firstly, congrats on the medals. But, secondly, how is treating your water with CRS not treating your water?!

Guy

Don't bother Cobnut too much about those techniques, he's probably already practicing what I'm trying to preach (i.e. doesn't need to be bothered with it! Exemplary!).

But what he says high-lights where I may have over-simplified things. If you do have a lot of temporary hardness, you do need to do something. Several years ago the advise was easy; just boil the water and leave it to stand until cool. Waste of fuel, not really that effective, but anyone can do it even those with soft water as the implications of doing it un-needed isn't really an issue. Had the added advantage of driving off all the chlorine, although that happened if the water was just left standing overnight (chloramine? That's new in UK water!). Alkalinity? That's also a new concern, back then it was about "temporary hardness" (alkalinity = temporary hardness? Well no, but for UK tap water thinking "temp. hardness" in place of "alkalinity" was near enough the same thing).

Now-days boiling is popularly replaced with "CRS" (AMS). Which is a bit of a faff to work out, but only needs roughly following once: I dug this up from Colchester Homebrews Website: https://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/co ... tment.html. This procedure probably also benefits from a bit of sodium metabisulphite to see off the chlorine (and chloramine if you have it).

Kev and Jocky fill in a bit more should you feel the need to further mess about with the subject. The subject is captivating, and you really can make noticeable (if small) differences to your beers.



A passing shot on the "lime" nonsense: Using lime is quite an "advanced" subject, but you do not have to worry about the screwier aspects of using it (i.e. when it starts working about face). We are simply not allowed to have drinking water that will act like that.

??? Any water with moderate to high temporary hardness, will have some of this hardness precipitated if you add slaked lime. Slaked lime is Calcium Hydroxide. It causes the increase in the pH of your water and precipitates alkalinity as Calcium Carbonate. British water is not special in this regard.

But if you want fetch your bucket and dip into a suitable supply, and then try to learn the screwy water chemistry surrounding it … don't let anyone stop you. Word of warning, the knowledge wont improve your brewing one little bit, and afterwards to pick up the pieces …

This long existing knowledge has saved a number of businesses from going under

well they closed all the lunatic asylums some time ago.

[killer]

Half the problem (in my mind, at least) is that there are so many variables at play that it's very hard to determine what is having an effect. And whilst water is the largest component of beer, as long as it's not "utterly wrong", I'm not sure my tastebuds are good enough for me to be able to determine whether that extra bit of residual alkalinity or change in the chloride/sulphate ratio or whatever has a noticeable effect.



It would probably take an awful lot of re-brewing the same beer whilst changing variables between brews to determine the effect. If I could.

And I think I'd get bored of always having ALMOST the same beer.

For sure, I think what I really wanted to say was that water is very important for lots of people but not everyone... Some people are luckier than others with their water - not me - my blonde beers are undrinkable (mash pH 6 - 6.1) without treatment - they taste like old tea. I wouldn't underestimate the effect of profile adjustment either though. A couple of years ago we brewed 3 x 20 hL (commercialy) of the same beer. It was a "porter/ stout" The only thing that we varied was Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride. The first beer was sulfate forward with no added Chloride. The second had more Calcium and lots of Chloride. The first one was dry and a little unbalanced. The second was delicious. Malty, balanced, easy to drink. A fantastic session winter beer. No-one believed that we the recipe was the same.

For me much of the joy in homebrewing is being able to brew lots of different beers to both drink myself, but also to share with friends and family.

Agreed.

Maybe I'll try brewing a beer with some "utterly wrong" water to see how "wrong" the beer turns out? I have a load of demineralised water which I suspect ought to be rather wrong for brewing with (pretty much zero residual alkanity and little or no calcium). But it won't be a full batch!

I have tasted a fair few beers brewed with 100% RO water and nothing else. Big big breweries might get away with it but you probably wouldn't enjoy one microbrewed or brewed at home.. A blonde beer brewed that way will actually have a mash pH that is a little too high and without Calcium a whole bunch of processes won't occur and you will end up with a lifeless, watery beer that probably won't look very good. But if you have some RO water and some salts you could try building a suitable profile for the beer you wish to brew... Put all this lively discussion to the test !



Cobnut.

[Jocky]

PeeBee

"We are simply not allowed to have drinking water that will act like that"

What's missing from our drinking water?

Okay? Did I post a bad choice of phrase there? I can do things like that, but the worrying bit is I haven't clicked what you mean!

But I don't know of any water company that (knowingly) allows water out that is pH10 or higher. And the process that causes lime to act that way needs the high pHs. It is most likely what is behind the recommendation to never add lime directly to the brewing water, but to add it to the dry grain before mashing. Added that way it can increase the pH of the mash which sodium bicarbonate can't do very well. Chalk is still used for this purpose, even though it is completely insoluble and will do nothing of the sort.

Anyway, many brewers will be completely perplexed by the need of a few wanting to increase pH! And I originally started this line of conversation because I didn't want to see the topic descend into geeky speculation.
So, I guess that worked then

I don't agree with your assertion that you can't reduce alkalinity using slaked lime/calcium hydroxide, but equally I don't see the point in arguing about it as it's an odd technique that is rarely used.

[PeeBee]

… don't agree with your assertion that you can't reduce alkalinity using slaked lime/calcium hydroxide, but equally I don't see the point in arguing about it as it's an odd technique that is rarely used.

Ah, okay, thank you. I'm guilty of something I'm often ranting about: Treating "parameters" in brewing processes like on-off switches, which they ain't.

I'm probably right guessing the reasons of never adding lime to the water, only the mash ingredients. But I'm also guilty of leading the thread into a geek-fest. So I'll shut-up about lime and drop the French Water Wizard into my "ignore list" where it can't wind me up (the one other character in that list needs some company).

[Jocky]

… don't agree with your assertion that you can't reduce alkalinity using slaked lime/calcium hydroxide, but equally I don't see the point in arguing about it as it's an odd technique that is rarely used.

Ah, okay, thank you. I'm guilty of something I'm often ranting about: Treating "parameters" in brewing processes like on-off switches, which they ain't.

I'm probably right guessing the reasons of never adding lime to the water, only the mash ingredients. But I'm also guilty of leading the thread into a geek-fest. So I'll shut-up about lime and drop the French Water Wizard into my "ignore list" where it can't wind me up (the one other character in that list needs some company).

As far as I understand it, if you put the lime into the water it will reduce alkalinity by precipitating calcium carbonate (up to a limit). Adding more will then start adding alkalinity back into the water.

As you want to go the other way you add it into the mash, which avoids the precipitation happening.

[killer]

… don't agree with your assertion that you can't reduce alkalinity using slaked lime/calcium hydroxide, but equally I don't see the point in arguing about it as it's an odd technique that is rarely used.

A

I'm probably right

You aren't



So I'll shut-up

Experience suggests otherwise

and drop the French Water Wizard into my "ignore list" where it can't wind me up (the one other character in that list needs some company).

I'm not French. I've spent most of my life in the British Isles. My dad was a brewer for a major Dublin based stout brewing company. His cousin analysed the source water for that company in liaison with the large chemistry department. I am a chemist. I do teach water chemistry in France and I work with a few dozen French and Irish breweries as a brewing water consultant. The idea being to simplify things so they don't need expensive equipment. But your brazen know it all preaching from a pulpit when you clearly haven't got a clue is a pain in the backside. Also your assumption that the level of detail is too much for other forum members is presumptuous at best. Sowing misinformation in an already complicated subject really isn't helpful. I'm more than happy for people to disagree and we can reason stuff out but talking to you is like talking to Trump. So by all means put me in your ignore list

[orlando]

You can lead a horse to (untreated ) water but....

[guypettigrew]

To get back on track! The beer mashed at the low pH of 5.1 has just been kegged. Seems fine to me! Very young and a bit short on gas, but no obvious taste problems.

Another few days will tell, of course.

Guy

[Kev888]

Good stuff! It was so close to the normal range that I was sure it would be okay, but it is always good to taste it in realty.

[PeeBee]

To get back on track! The beer mashed at the low pH of 5.1 has just been kegged. Seems fine to me! Very young and a bit short on gas, but no obvious taste problems.

Another few days will tell, of course.

Guy

Sorry Guy, got a bit distracted in this thread and things did go off at a bit of a tangent …

So your beer should be fine. I was having similar "issues" last year, hence I got bogged down with the L-word (I'm not talking about the L-word remember), but can't say I really noticed the effect of low pH either (except for the output of these cheapo Chinese pH meters - I'm on my third within two years). This year - the opposite happens (mash pH too high) and I'm backing off the L-word like crazy. Turns out the water treatment works was/is having a major over-haul including the "dosing" system (?) which got a replacing. If your low pH has only recently started occurring, maybe it has a similar reason? These things don't get advertised (I stumbled on it accidentally), the water company just makes sure things are within their tolerances. But it might also have changed for a myriad of other reasons which might also be temporary (might not) so no need to rush into cures like I did, especially as the results are coming out fine.

BTW, if you start messing with the L-word to combat low pH, I'd recommend using a water calculator (I use Bru'n Water) 'cos the right quantities are tiny. And don't put any in the water (dry mash grain only) (see Jocky's reasoning).



I also apologise if my posts in your thread are still triggering abusive behaviour by another forumite? I can't see them any longer, but I guess everyone else has to put up with them.

[WallyBrew]

I also apologise if my posts in your thread are still triggering abusive behaviour by another forumite? I can't see them any longer, but I guess everyone else has to put up with them.

That is your loss then but do keep buying cheap pH meters and using Bru'n water as it obviously works for you.

[Heron1952]

Oh dear

[FUBAR]

I also apologise if my posts in your thread are still triggering abusive behaviour by another forumite? I can't see them any longer, but I guess everyone else has to put up with them.

That is your loss then but do keep buying cheap pH meters and using Bru'n water as it obviously works for you.

Very missleading, it needs rebranding as Bru'n wrong .

[PeeBee]

… but do keep buying cheap pH meters and using Bru'n water as it obviously works for you.

'Twas an easy choice to recommend Bru'n Water … it appears to be the only one that calculates L-word additions. All the other calculators seem to be stuck on "Bru'n <hopelessly> wrong" chalk.


Hum, seems I might of failed to foresee the love for the character with the puerile username. And despite promising not to mention the "L-word" it appears to be following me still. Sorry Guy (if you are still reading this), hopefully you've got what you wanted from this thread. Time for me to leave it. Bye.