Stout Trouble

[Addled Jim]

Hi

Brewed today he GW Guinness Export clone from his brew Classic European Beers At Home book 70,20,10 to a target OG of 1048 - well I'm so far off I'm flummoxed as hydrometer is currently 1040
I normally hit my numbers without trouble so I wondered if this recipe caused anyone else issues - does the quantity of Flaked Barley (20%) not yield so much sugar? The lower alcohol could be excused in the end product but with a 45IBU it will be way too bitter

All my liquid volumes were correct throughout the process - and I have 23lt in the FV - other than breaking can hydrometers go wrong as I cant work this one out

Any pointer appreciated, James

[orlando]

At 70% of the grist you are starting to get close to not having enough diastatic malt to convert the rest. If your water treatment isn't right e.g enough calcium, you may be increasing the problem. Another thought was your efficiency settings in the software you use, but given your liquid volumes were correct that is less likely. Do you know what your preboil SG was?

[Kev888]

With this recipe I just get the same sort of mash and brewhouse efficiency as for other beers. Though that is with the right water chemistry and a 90min mash (I haven't actually tried cutting corners with it so not sure what may happen were that the case).

The flaked barley does contribute quite a lot less less gravity than pale malt (many things do of course), so I always factor this in beforehand. If you don't have numbers for your specific grain then I generally reckon on about 230 gravity points per kg in one litre (whereas pale is more likely around 310 points). Around 210 points for the roasted barley.

[Dave S]

I've brewed 'standard' Guinness clones to that ratio a number of times and not had a problem hitting the numbers, so not sure what has gone wrong for you here. As Orlando said, poor Mash conditions are a possible cause. did you take pH readings?

[Addled Jim]

Thanks for the replies, I will add more detail to answer the questions posed.
I Brew Biab and have only usd the Biabacus spreadsheet for all of my brews, this was #49 so I trust the spreadsheet is dialed in to my equipment/process as I normally hit my numbers within acceptable variance
I don't perform water treatments usually, occasionally the basic treatment GW describes in his book but I didn't this time for the stout, I just added a campden tablet. I'm in Essex, Chelmsford area and the water is hard so I thought more suited to a stout so didn't bother, so no PH measurement taken.nor did I take a Pre boil SG reading

Thanks James

[orlando]

It looks like the mash conditions are the place to focus. pH readings supply a little more information. I know Essex water is quite hard as a number of Anglian Craft Brewers are from Essex and have reported on it. What I don't know are the calcium levels. The combination of alkalinity too high and not enough calcium could be the cause. Maybe you should consider joining ACB and discuss it with them.

[guypettigrew]

But if the previous 48 brews were OK then it seems unlikely working on the alkalinity and calcium ions would solve the problem.

Perhaps just best to accept this brew didn't work out as expected. These things happen! The time to worry is if it happens again.

Guy

[Robwalkeragain]

Yeast nackered maybe? Try a repitch

[Kev888]

Yeast nackered maybe? Try a repitch

I'd read the OP to mean the OG was out, rather than the FG - but on re-reading it, that isn't a given. If the fermentation has stuck right up at 1.040 then that would indeed be very different.

[Robwalkeragain]

Oh. Right you are, extraction issues then probably. Sometimes it can be as simple as thoroughly mixing the grist before adding - a bag chunk of flaked barley will probably just form a gloopy ball and grain needs to be in contact with wort and therefore conversion enzymes to do anything...just a guess! But if the only real difference is grist you can probably assume it’s the grains. PH isn’t usually an issue with dark malts as they’ll act as a natural buffer

[WalesAles]

orlando,
Congrats to your `Rhythm of the Rain`!

WA

[Addled Jim]

Thanks for the replies, I am going to laugh this one off as a blip as I'm usually consistent, I really don't want to explore water chemistry as I've been happy with my beers to date, improving along the way, maybe this may change in the future but for now I'll keep things simple
The 1040 was the starting position, its been chugging away nicely through the blow off for couple of days now so no worries on the yeast. I'll probably not allow it to sit as long as normal after fermentation has finished, instead crash cool and get another stout on, maybe in time for xmas/new year. I had thought of brewing a stronger stout and mixing the two but that could just be turd polishing and result in 2 dodgy beers, you never no it may taste OK?

[Kev888]

Without knowing for certain what was behind this, then hard to predict. But certainly don't throw it until you find out; there are plenty of possibilities that could leave it drinkable, if not exactly the balance that was intended.

The bitterness to gravity ratio would lean more towards the former, and there may be fewer residuals, so it could seem more bitter and drier than intended. But there need not be anything wrong with it, as such.

[ben034]

I've had similar issues previously with flaked barley when I used it in a stout at 25%. OG was about 6 points off despite at that time 50+ brews on the same system.

[Kev888]

Most odd. Flaked barley isn't (of course) malted barley so may respond with 'slightly' different efficiency within the same mash, but not that much in my experience. It really shouldn't bring the gravity down by several points, especially as it is only a part of the total grain, so something strange is happening IMO.

I suppose it depends how much other difficult grain was involved. If quite a lot and/or if the mash were sub-optimum then as Orlando says the diastatic power may have been insufficient, but challenging to nail down over a forum otherwise.

Initially though, I would be interested to know what you and James (the OP) were using as the flaked barley's potential extract value. It would be quite good if that were sufficiently out of kilter, we'd then know for sure why this was happening.