lager

[rpruen]

Ok so I did a test batch of lager (1 Gallon) in my 3V kit. Yes the losses are very big, and the yield poor.

It is the first time I used water treatment, notably phosphoric acid to reduce the calcium. Small additions of epsom salt and gypsum as suggested by Mash made Easy (I don't remember the exact amounts, as a recent update to my PC ate the spreadsheet, reinstall and recover from backup style).

I used purely lager malt

Hops are Northern Brewer (Bittering) and Hallertauer Hersbrucker (Aroma)

So my issue is.... It's a bit lacklustre, there's nothing wrong exactly, but if it was all that was available, I'd probably add a dash of lime, just to Zizz it up a bit. There's no off flavours or nastiness, it doesn't lack for malt, the hops are there (not overpowering) and the mouthfeel is good. There's something missing but its hard to say what, other than Zing.

Any ideas where I am going wrong?

Regards

Richard

Maybe I'm just not a lager person?

[Rookie]

What yeast?
Next time add a bit of crystal malt and some munich or vienna.

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

Getting good lager is tricky- there are plenty of commercial breweries that can’t pull it off or won’t bother.

You are relying a lot on the base malt; while you can substitute a lot of pale ale malt across a range of ale styles, I think you have less wiggle room with lager malt.

Bite the bullet and dig deep for the European pils malt, weyermann , dingemans etc. Or you are going to need to experiment with low colour crystal malt or special malts like Vienna, Munich, caravienna etc which can be a bit heavy handed

Your water quality matters, consider replacing most of your liquor with asbeck etc

[rpruen]

What yeast?
Next time add a bit of crystal malt and some munich or vienna.

Yeast was Saflager W37/70 rehydrated and pitched like that, not dry. The reason for that is it wasn't particularly fresh and I wanted to see it going. Maybe not the best to experiment with

I can see the crystal malt, the others I will have to experiment with. I'm fairly sure I can turn out something decent, given enough prompting

Thanks for the input

Richard

[rpruen]

Getting good lager is tricky- there are plenty of commercial breweries that can’t pull it off or won’t bother.

This I know, I was just experimenting to see if I can... It's far from my usual style of beer, hence all the silly questions

Bite the bullet and dig deep for the European pils malt, weyermann , dingemans etc. Or you are going to need to experiment with low colour crystal malt or special malts like Vienna, Munich, caravienna etc which can be a bit heavy handed

Yes I will do some research into those, I'm thinking there's a whole new world out there, and some of these specialist malts might, just might add a twist to my other beers.

Your water quality matters, consider replacing most of your liquor with asbeck etc

My tap water is pretty consistent, and as in the original post, MME only wanted to make minor additions. The main thing was to knock down the calcium from the hard water. Though I will look into starting out with bottled water. It wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't partly a water treatment issue.

Thanks for all the input

Regards

Richard

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

If lager isn’t your thing, pick up some of the classics from a good offy or go online.

Without having to search too hard , you should be able to get pilsner urquell, budvar, bitburger, krombacher, staropramen, veltins and spaten.

If you can source more hell lager try that too, like paulamer hell or Augustine’s hell.

There is also newer stuff by craft breweries, Camden hells is great, meantime is decent, and West/st Mungo’s is really good too. Also schiehallion, for an opinionated take on a lager. Anchor steam, sam Adams from the us, and brewdog have a couple of good lagers that are worth a go.

Some of the regional brewers have been chucking out lagers with good success, ie adnams, and st Austell

I don’t love all of those, but they should be easy enough to find most of them, and they cover a lot of ground with pale lager styles both classic and contemporary.

Sup them alongside your own brew and take notes.

Differences are subtle. Whether you call your beer a pils or a helles may be down to how it turned out rather than your recipe

Well done lager is special indeed, and I found it a source of pride when I pulled it off twice.

[IPA]

Going wrong ? Sounds to me like you have cracked it. The reason that lager is so widely drunk is on the whole it lacks taste. So nobody can dislike it. It is served cold to reduce the flavour even more. Try drinking lager at room temperature and it tastes like it has been filtered by human kidneys.

[rpruen]

Going wrong ? Sounds to me like you have cracked it. The reason that lager is so widely drunk is on the whole it lacks taste. So nobody can dislike it. It is served cold to reduce the flavour even more. Try drinking lager at room temperature and it tastes like it has been filtered by human kidneys.

There's the thing, maybe I have. I bottled the result and will pass it by a larger drinker.

For me it lacks the punch of a dry hopped IPA, or the body of a stout. Like I say it would go well with a wedge of preserved lime, or a drop of lime cordial, I feel that would compliment the hops, being the only thing you have to work with.

Regards

Richard

[rpruen]

There is also newer stuff by craft breweries, Camden hells is great, meantime is decent, and West/st Mungo’s is really good too. Also schiehallion, for an opinionated take on a lager. Anchor steam, sam Adams from the us, and brewdog have a couple of good lagers that are worth a go.

Some of the regional brewers have been chucking out lagers with good success, ie adnams, and st Austell

The only lager I have currently, is Wild Beer sleeping limes, a lager fruited with preserved lime. I can see why you would do that.

I don’t love all of those, but they should be easy enough to find most of them, and they cover a lot of ground with pale lager styles both classic and contemporary.

Sup them alongside your own brew and take notes.

Tastes like I put more hops in than normal lager, slightly sweeter and more malt than Carlsberg. I'm thinking It's very fresh and will dry out a bit with keeping. It's also higher ABV around the 7 ish mark, so a little bit more boozy. I prefer my attempt to the Carlsberg personally, but will definitely compare it to some other more craft lager. I will also have a lager drinker available tomorrow to give some notes...

Differences are subtle. Whether you call your beer a pils or a helles may be down to how it turned out rather than your recipe

Well done lager is special indeed, and I found it a source of pride when I pulled it off twice.

Yes i'm sure this isn't well done lager, but it isn't a total failure either.

Thanks for the input

Richard

[Rookie]

What yeast?
Next time add a bit of crystal malt and some munich or vienna.

Yeast was Saflager W37/70 rehydrated and pitched like that, not dry. The reason for that is it wasn't particularly fresh and I wanted to see it going. Maybe not the best to experiment with

Thanks for the input

Richard

W34/70 is a really good yeast. I use it and S-189 for all my lagers.
The best by dates on dry yeast are mostly bollocks. If stored properly dry yeast is good for years.

[rpruen]

So my report from the lager drinker, was that it could do with less hops, but other than that it was mighty fine.

Also comments about the ABV at 7.2% was that it was too much, and could have been less strong.

Pissed posting brought to you by too much homebrew IPA

Regardes richard

[sandimas]

Today I brewed a Helles lager with 3% Melanoidin malt, first time I've added this so will be interesting to see how it turns out. Fermenting it with MJ M76 Bavarian Lager Yeast, again a first. I only make lagers once every 2 years or so, so am far from an expert on this style.

[rpruen]

Today I brewed a Helles lager with 3% Melanoidin malt, first time I've added this so will be interesting to see how it turns out. Fermenting it with MJ M76 Bavarian Lager Yeast, again a first. I only make lagers once every 2 years or so, so am far from an expert on this style.

Please let me know how that turned out, as I am interested in improving my lager. The more I look into it the more it seems you can make something interesting and lager like.

Regards

Richard

[nickjdavis]

[quote=IPA post_id=847955 time=1580456084 user_id=9129]
Going wrong ? Sounds to me like you have cracked it. The reason that lager is so widely drunk is on the whole it lacks taste. So nobody can dislike it. It is served cold to reduce the flavour even more. Try drinking lager at room temperature and it tastes like it has been filtered by human kidneys.
[/quote]

I guess (hope) there is a bit of tongue in cheek about the above comment but it is this sort of statement that actually deters brewers from trying to brew lager and related styles.

Once you get away from the mass market commercial beers that most people know (Bud, Stella, Coors, Fosters, Carling yada yada yada) and really explore the depths of the lager style then a whole new brewing vista will be opened up.

Yes it is a challenge to brew a good, characterful, flavoursome lager beer. Temeprature control of fermentation is utterly critical, as is the use of the freshest top quality ingredients and a goodly amount of well rehydrated yeast or a big yeast starter.

But once you get hooked and start exploring the subtle differences between German Pilsners, Dortmunder, Helles, Czech Pilsners, Dunkels, Schwarzbiers, Leichtbiers, Baltic Porters, Amber Lagers, Dark Lagers, Vienna's, Marzens and Octoberfests, Rauchbiers, Bocks and Dopplebocks….you'll soon realise that lager shouldn't be dismissed in such glib terms.

[rpruen]

Once you get away from the mass market commercial beers that most people know (Bud, Stella, Coors, Fosters, Carling yada yada yada) and really explore the depths of the lager style then a whole new brewing vista will be opened up.

There's also things to be learned in brewing in general, like subtlety of flavour. I can see my next brew being different because of what I have learned trying to brew larger. I have modified my water profile for the first time, and next time I will be taking it further, sadly I can only do lager in the winter as I lack fermentation chillers (I might work on DIY-ing something).

Yes it is a challenge to brew a good, characterful, flavoursome lager beer. Temeprature control of fermentation is utterly critical, as is the use of the freshest top quality ingredients and a goodly amount of well rehydrated yeast or a big yeast starter.

I hope to turn out better brews, so far I have cracked as good as Carlsberg, but more interesting. It's not so easy to do, because you can't hide anything in lager, off tastes would spoil it. I will take on board the points about yeast, I rehydrated mine and made sure the starter was good and lively before pitching. I also left the wort to settle for a good long time after chilling to remove as much gunk as possible, it really was very bright and clear when going into the fermenter.

Next time I have some more interesting grains to add more flavour, and different characters, but it was good to brew a neutral or plain bier first, it means my system works. I'm then going to experiment with different hops and grains, not to hide anything but just for the heck of it. I hope to progress from gallon batches to full size batches.

That might sort out the strength issue, as I always seem to add a bit of extra grain, just for good measure. Not a problem with a full size batch, but with a gallon an extra handful of grain gets you 7.2% beer.

But once you get hooked and start exploring the subtle differences between German Pilsners, Dortmunder, Helles, Czech Pilsners, Dunkels, Schwarzbiers, Leichtbiers, Baltic Porters, Amber Lagers, Dark Lagers, Vienna's, Marzens and Octoberfests, Rauchbiers, Bocks and Dopplebocks….you'll soon realise that lager shouldn't be dismissed in such glib terms.

I'm not dismissing it at all. I'm thinking of incorporating it into my normal brewing, maybe a pale larger malt based beer, dry hopped with cascade. I can see the possibility for something crisp and clean but with a hop forward character. Aromatic without being quite so 'in your face' as the beer I brew now. It's maybe because I don't have to cover up off flavours anymore, maybe just because I like to experiment.

Thanks for all the input

Regards
Richard