Invert Sugar

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paulg
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Invert Sugar

Post by paulg » Mon May 18, 2020 7:12 am

I see "adventures in homebrewing " a shop in the USA has Invert Sugar for sale.
They must have found a supplier for small quantities unless they are packaging it them selves
Anyone know about Beckers ,is it obtainable in UK,

https://www.homebrewing.org/Sugars-for- ... c_153.html

McMullan
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by McMullan » Mon May 18, 2020 2:25 pm

Why not make it yourself? A lot cheaper and you can choose which cane sugar supplier to use. There are noticeable differences among suppliers and to get an authentic English brewing sugar you probably want to use an English supplier. Billington's are my favourite.

paulg
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by paulg » Mon May 18, 2020 3:12 pm

i have thought about it,and thats as far as I have got,
I brew mainly clones of english beers and many include invert in the recipe,up til now i have cheated using golden syrup & molasses but I know this is not correct,
Ordering it from USA would indeed work out expensive on shipping and probably additional custom fees here in Greece

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by McMullan » Mon May 18, 2020 3:29 pm

Give making your own a go. It's very easy to make. Obviously it's easier to make #1 then add some blackstrap to get #2 and #3. Demerara is really nice too.

paulg
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by paulg » Mon May 18, 2020 3:46 pm

i will investigate what sugars are available locally,I may need to get a sugar thermometer though.

what suger do you recommend.I have looked at the billington range and there are several

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by McMullan » Mon May 18, 2020 4:17 pm

Billington's Golden Granulated or Golden Caster sugar are both fine. As is their Demerara sugar. Their molasses too, if you can't get any blackstrap. I've noticed prices are a bit extortionate online at the moment, since this virus situation started. It's still cheap in supermarkets, though. Probably best to get someone to send some :wink: Citric acid's easy to get on eBay.

There's a little historical perspective here: viewtopic.php?p=841028#p841028

Some people say sugar (sucrose) inverts in the boil, but I disagree. It won't get fully inverted at 100℃ over 60-90min. You'll find the temperature won't climb to 116-120℃ until most of the water has boiled off. Inverting it properly prior to brewing likely enhances its flavour and certainly makes the sugars (monosaccharides) more available to yeast cells without much metabolic effort on their part, so it could be viewed as enhancing fermentation as well as flavour.

paulg
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by paulg » Mon May 18, 2020 7:21 pm

hopefully once the virus situation eases I can get some brought out with friends but hopefully I can find something locally.I will do some searching

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Dennis King
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by Dennis King » Mon May 18, 2020 7:29 pm

I bought a 25kg block from Beko https://www.bakose.co.uk/ I found their website hard to work out as it seemed available in some areas not other so I phoned and was delivered in a couple of days. This was a couple of years back.

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by guypettigrew » Mon May 18, 2020 7:36 pm

What's the advantage of invert sugar, please? Other than allowing the yeast to work more easily/quickly.

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by k1100t » Tue May 19, 2020 7:03 am

From Ron Pattinson's blog - https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/200 ... sugar.html Which entertainingly, has an advert for Becker's Brewing Sugars on it...
This is a good one. I've seen it argued by homebrewers that brewing sugars are a waste of money. The line of reasoning goes that you may as well use table sugar as this will be inverted in the wort by invertase excreted by the yeast. Sounds reasonable enough.

But hang on a minute. Why the hell do breweries use invert brewing sugar if it's just the same as cheap refined sugar? Isn't sugar just sugar?

No, it isn't. Brewing sugar isn't just inverted refined sugar. It's inverted raw cane sugar. This contains more than just sucrose. And it's these "impurities" that provide the flavours brewers are looking for.
"Invert sugar made from refined sugar lacks the lusciousness and other characteristics desirable in a brewing sugar, so that raw cane sugars are generally used. In addition to invert sugar, uninverted saccharose and water, therefore, commercial invert contains from 0.2 to 0.7% of albuminoids, from 3 to 6% of unfermentable organic matter and from i to 3.5% of mineral matter, the latter being partly derived from the raw material and partly introduced as calcium carbonate to neutralise the acid used in effecting hydrolysis. Sulphuric acid is generally employed as hydrolyst because the comparative insolubility of calcium sulphate makes it possible to eliminate most of the mineral matter introduced for the purpose of neutralisation.

Raw beet sugar could not be used for the production of brewers' invert, on account of the objectionable flavour of the secondary constituents. No such objection would attach to the use of hightly refined beet sugar, but highly refined sugars are not used for the reasons already stated. Occasionally invert sugar is made from a mixture of raw cane sugar and high- grade raw beet sugars (first runnings) and the origin of such invert sugar is not readily detected by the palate or nose. It is, however, desirable to exclude it from the brewery, and this can usually be done by limiting the permissible percentage of albuminoids, which is higher in beet than in cane products. Brewers' invert is supplied in three grades, and it is reasonable to require them to contain less than the following percentages of albuminoids: No. I, 0.3%; No. II, 0.5%; and No. Ill, 0.75%. A good No. Ill will comply with the standard here set up for No. I, so that the above limits cannot be unduly stringent."
"Allen's commerical organic analysis", 1917, pages 7-8.
Inverting the stuff you buy in the supermarket to sweeten your tea won't give you brewing sugar. You need to start with a less refined sugar. Something like demerera sugar, I guess.
Ron also includes a Making Invert Sugar page in his book The Homebrewer's Guide to Vintage Beer.
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by guypettigrew » Tue May 19, 2020 7:49 am

Interesting read, thanks.

If I ever use sugar in a brew I always use 'golden granulated' which is cane sugar, not beet sugar. It has a lovely smell and taste, whereas refined beet sugar has neither smell nor taste (other than sweetness) to me. I think it was McMullan on here who pointed me in the direction of cane rather than beet sugar--thanks McM.

Which still leaves me unclear as to whether inverted cane sugar is any better than non-inverted cane sugar.

Why do I get the feeling I'm somehow completely missing the point here?!

Guy

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by Mashman » Tue May 19, 2020 9:06 am

Tate and Lyle sugars are from cane. Silver Spoon products are from UK sugar beet.
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by McMullan » Tue May 19, 2020 10:19 am

If I don't have any prepped invert I'll happily use sucrose (cane). I struggle to accept cooking inverting cane syrup close to 120℃ for at least an hour doesn't affect its flavour, though. I generally opt for using the inverted stuff, but I haven't done any specific comparisons. I'm assuming its an industry for a reason. I can see some experiments forming, though. Ferment out the sugars and compare flavour of inverted vs non-inverted solutions of the same unrefined cane sugar. I'd test fermentation performance too, using wort supplemented with inverted vs non-inverted cane sugar.

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Dennis King
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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by Dennis King » Tue May 19, 2020 11:34 am

When I first bought my block of invert the first few beers I brewed were Graham Wheeler recipes that I was familiar with that used white sugar. Although I never had the same beers to try side by side I did think from my taste memory bank the invert supplied a bit more depth and subtle taste.

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Re: Invert Sugar

Post by Northern Brewer » Tue May 19, 2020 1:08 pm

Dennis King wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:29 pm
I bought a 25kg block from Beko https://www.bakose.co.uk/ I found their website hard to work out as it seemed available in some areas not other so I phoned and was delivered in a couple of days. This was a couple of years back.
Well that's because that site is for Bako South East (clue is in the domain name). Good price too, although Brewer's Select in Peterborough currently have Ragus #1 for <£20

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