Porter with soapy off taste

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Jase
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Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Jase » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:13 pm

Hi Guys,

So I'm tasting a porter I kegged a couple of days ago and it definitely has a slightly soapy taste. It might just be drinkable, not sure yet, but it is definitely and to me it is quite prominent, so I'm not sure yet. Its very young so I'm going to leave it a while to see if it goes away naturally while maturing. The keg was properly washed, rinsed and sanitised, so I don't believe it is actual soap that has contributed the off taste. Palmer lists this as a specific off flavour that can be due to fermentation. He states:

If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub.

This batch was fermented with WLP002. Fermentation was very rapid, Krausen formed early and fermentation well underway after just 12 hours, and was complete in 4 days. At which point I dropped the temperature to 2C, and it remained there for 4 days, at which point it went in the keg. So, all very quick.

I often use SO4 in this manner for a quick fermentation and turn around, but haven't used WLP002 before so I am not familiar with its characteristics. This clearly doesn't fall into Palmers category of remaining too long in the fermenter, and I'm wondering if in fact it is the opposite, and perhaps I didn't leave it long enough and it didn't finish clearing up after itself. But that contradicts Palmers explanation about how fatty acids form, which contribute the soapy taste. Any thoughts about what could be causing the taste?

Thanks

J

McMullan

Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by McMullan » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm

Who's Palmer? Is he a member here on JBK? Got a link to his thread about soapy Porters? I must have missed that one.

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Eric
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Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Eric » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:41 pm

You can leave WLP002 at fermentation temperature when it will drop out by itself without chilling.

I remember reading Palmer a few years back. He did get the odd thing right, but that was before a few other American home brewers redesigned the history of brewing.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Jase
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Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Jase » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:26 am

McMullan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm
Who's Palmer? Is he a member here on JBK? Got a link to his thread about soapy Porters? I must have missed that one.
Sorry, John J Palmer's "How to Brew". I thought it was as ubiquitous as Wheelers BYOBRA. There is a partial on line version that I quoted from.

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Trefoyl
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Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Trefoyl » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:46 pm

Jase wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:26 am
McMullan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm
Who's Palmer? Is he a member here on JBK? Got a link to his thread about soapy Porters? I must have missed that one.
Sorry, John J Palmer's "How to Brew". I thought it was as ubiquitous as Wheelers BYOBRA. There is a partial on line version that I quoted from.
McMullan was teasing but the quote is relevant to a batch that I think I will have to pour down the drain. I pitched a dry yeast that was in the freezer a long time that I hoped was still good but wasn’t, no activity, and pitched a new sachet later. The bottles of beer had a persistent yeasty flavor for months and now it tastes soapy - what Palmer says makes sense.
If the yeast is unhealthy and begins autolyzing it will release compounds that can only be described as yeasty.
Your soapy off-flavor obviously cannot be old autolysed yeast though. I think you’re correct and the S04, a very estery yeast, didn’t have enough time to clean up after itself. It will probably continue to mellow if not too cold.
Sommeliers recommend that you swirl a glass of wine and inhale its bouquet before throwing it in the face of your enemy.

McMullan

Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by McMullan » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:15 pm

Jase wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:26 am
McMullan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm
Who's Palmer? Is he a member here on JBK? Got a link to his thread about soapy Porters? I must have missed that one.
Sorry, John J Palmer's "How to Brew". I thought it was as ubiquitous as Wheelers BYOBRA. There is a partial on line version that I quoted from.
I see I've been rumbled #-o

Linoleic acid is often perceived as ‘soapy’. . But why’s ‘it’ (according to your tastebuds and senses, which are a very personal thing) above the threshold in your Porter?

I wonder if it has more to do with the effects of pH? This is something that can be easily measured at home, unlike fatty acids. Did you treat your mash water for brewing a Porter? There’s always a good chance this ‘off flavour’ fades away over time too. It might be a bit on the green side at the moment. WLP002 is a very characterful strain and the beer is going to change over weeks at least. In my experience achieving a quick turnaround requires intervention and careful yeast choice. The idea yeast ‘clean up after themselves’ is a bit of a myth mainly. As yeast cells drop out (and the beer clears) they take many ‘off flavours’ with them. That’s why clear beer generally tastes better. But, with WLP002, which is highly flocculant, that's probably not it. Another possibility is the ingredients used. I once had what I believe was a dodgy batch of black malt. I tend to buy it by the kg. After a few brews with a weird hint of ‘soy sauce’ a fresh batch of black malt and it disappeared.

With so many factors it’s not easy to problem solve, but it’s probably going to fade with time.

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Trefoyl
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Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Trefoyl » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:19 am

Image
I don’t know where I got S-04 from. And I just tasted a bottle of my weird tasting beer that was in the fridge for a couple weeks and it tastes good, so must have settled something out.
Sommeliers recommend that you swirl a glass of wine and inhale its bouquet before throwing it in the face of your enemy.

Jase
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:19 pm

Re: Porter with soapy off taste

Post by Jase » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:44 pm

McMullan wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:15 pm
Jase wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:26 am
McMullan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 pm
Who's Palmer? Is he a member here on JBK? Got a link to his thread about soapy Porters? I must have missed that one.
Sorry, John J Palmer's "How to Brew". I thought it was as ubiquitous as Wheelers BYOBRA. There is a partial on line version that I quoted from.
I see I've been rumbled #-o

Linoleic acid is often perceived as ‘soapy’. . But why’s ‘it’ (according to your tastebuds and senses, which are a very personal thing) above the threshold in your Porter?

I wonder if it has more to do with the effects of pH? This is something that can be easily measured at home, unlike fatty acids. Did you treat your mash water for brewing a Porter? There’s always a good chance this ‘off flavour’ fades away over time too. It might be a bit on the green side at the moment. WLP002 is a very characterful strain and the beer is going to change over weeks at least. In my experience achieving a quick turnaround requires intervention and careful yeast choice. The idea yeast ‘clean up after themselves’ is a bit of a myth mainly. As yeast cells drop out (and the beer clears) they take many ‘off flavours’ with them. That’s why clear beer generally tastes better. But, with WLP002, which is highly flocculant, that's probably not it. Another possibility is the ingredients used. I once had what I believe was a dodgy batch of black malt. I tend to buy it by the kg. After a few brews with a weird hint of ‘soy sauce’ a fresh batch of black malt and it disappeared.

With so many factors it’s not easy to problem solve, but it’s probably going to fade with time.
Thanks for the response, I was reading all about Linoleic acid, all very interesting, although I'll happily admit I didn't understand all of it...

I don't treat my water, I just use it as it comes from the tap, and yes I read in some of those articles about the affects of pH, so perhaps that is it. Interestingly, either the flavour is fading slowly with time (as you suggest), or, I seem to be getting used to it, as it no longer appears to be so prominent. It is obviously young though, but it is very clear already. I'm trying to leave it alone to allow it to mature a bit. Hard to leave it alone though, when it is sitting there on tap...

J

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