Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

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Muttonchops
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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by Muttonchops » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:29 pm

Hi PeeBee. I've read the 'other' discussion you linked to from beginning to end - quite a journey! Whilst it makes some sense to add to that thread, it is now very old so it makes more sense to put it here.

Much is made, quite rightly, of the impact of the first world war and also of the introduction of new malting processes. But I feel that there are two important historical aspects that are being overlooked in this effort to define historical beers using modern day terms.

The first of these is transport. Prior to around 1750 all goods had to be transported by horse and cart or on boats and ships. It was easier to transport large heavy items from London to the continent, or even India, than it was to transport them to inland English towns such as Swindon or Derby. The brewing of beer within the UK was therefore very much a local affair - you took whatever beer your local brewery or ale-house made and any naming was only vaguely descriptive, e.g. pale or amber which could be mild or stout, etc (porter was a bit of an exception to this). From 1750-ish canals extended the reach of transport and it is probably no coincidence that this is when larger breweries began to be prominent (and why previous large breweries were near navigable rivers). In the second half of the 19th century rail started to take over, culminating in the latter part of the century, and transport became much faster, easier and cheaper. Battle lines would be drawn between the big breweries who could now get their product pretty much anywhere, although the 'last mile' still depended on dray horses and poor roads. This would be changing by the time of the first world war with the introduction of the internal combustion engine.

The second factor is marketing. With inland transport now so much better the free market economy could gear up a step or two. Sure there was advertising from early on, but active marketing is a different beast which didn't really get going as an industry in its own right until post first world war. Marketing folk like nothing less than vague descriptions, they like clear definitions so they can target products to the customers they think will buy them. So what is 'Mild Ale'? Ask a marketing person if you want an answer. It is, of course, a session beer, one that you can drink on a long evening at the boozer without being thrown out at 9.00 as a drunkard. It is weak, but still flavoursome, and it is dark (because the flavoursome comes from the darker-kilned and crystal malts). It isn't heavily hopped giving it a 'mild' flavour. Stout is easy - black, strong, roasty, readily identifiable; but still with some scope for descriptions - smooth, nutritious, 'does you good' - to distinguish yours from the inferior competition. Porter was a difficult one for the marketing folk, until, of course, their customers started to show a nostalgic desire for the 'ales of Old England'. To a marketing person, what's in the bottle is of secondary importance to what's on the label!

I believe it is somewhat futile to try to compare historic nomenclature of beer styles with those of modern times in anything but the broadest terms. We can dig out old recipes from big breweries, but these will mostly need interpretation and substitution as Edd is doing in his blogs. But you really can't transfer the names of beers to those of modern times. I don't care what anyone may say, but Mild Ale as we know it was not brewed before WWI. Does Mild Ale as we know it have to have a precursor?

Modern (late/post-19th century) malts (and hops) are more varied and, for the most part, more consistent than anything produced in the 18th and early 19th centuries. They can give us better control and (intentional) variety than we ever had historically (unless you consider non-hop herb and fruit additions). Our palates are also very different when compared to folk who lived two centuries ago (and, I hate to say it, largely influenced by marketeers).

I'm fascinated by the history of beer, and using the knowledge to experiment with different beers is really exciting, but let's not get too caught up with semantics. And let's not forget the primary goal is that of brewing delicious beer!

My next one's a Nut Ale; can anyone tell me the best nuts to use?!

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Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by f00b4r » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:08 pm

Muttonchops wrote:My next one's a Nut Ale; can anyone tell me the best nuts to use?!
Well.....
I know you might not be being serious with that but let me give you a serious reply.... roasted or vacuum packed ‘roasted’ chestnuts!
They have very little fat and lend a nice nutty caramel flavour to a brown ale, 15 of them in a 20L batch 60 minutes before flameout.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by Muttonchops » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:29 pm

Ah, Foob4r, many thanks for the tip. I reckon I'm going to try that one. 'Muttonchops Nut Brown Ale - it puts hairs on yer chest!' Although my Marketing Director might have trouble with that on the basis of sexual discrimination.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:13 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:08 pm
Muttonchops wrote:My next one's a Nut Ale; can anyone tell me the best nuts to use?!
Well.....
I know you might not be being serious with that but let me give you a serious reply.... roasted or vacuum packed ‘roasted’ chestnuts!
They have very little fat and lend a nice nutty caramel flavour to a brown ale, 15 of them in a 20L batch 60 minutes before flameout.
What's all this prattle about nuts in beer? How can you despoil my "Historic ... " thread with nonsense about nuts in beers. Flippin' "craft-beer" twaddle ...

Image

... Hoy! Who put that there!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

McMullan

Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by McMullan » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:02 pm

Muttonchops wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:29 pm
Hi PeeBee. I've read the 'other' discussion you linked to from beginning to end - quite a journey! Whilst it makes some sense to add to that thread, it is now very old so it makes more sense to put it here.

Much is made, quite rightly, of the impact of the first world war and also of the introduction of new malting processes. But I feel that there are two important historical aspects that are being overlooked in this effort to define historical beers using modern day terms.

The first of these is transport. Prior to around 1750 all goods had to be transported by horse and cart or on boats and ships. It was easier to transport large heavy items from London to the continent, or even India, than it was to transport them to inland English towns such as Swindon or Derby. The brewing of beer within the UK was therefore very much a local affair - you took whatever beer your local brewery or ale-house made and any naming was only vaguely descriptive, e.g. pale or amber which could be mild or stout, etc (porter was a bit of an exception to this). From 1750-ish canals extended the reach of transport and it is probably no coincidence that this is when larger breweries began to be prominent (and why previous large breweries were near navigable rivers). In the second half of the 19th century rail started to take over, culminating in the latter part of the century, and transport became much faster, easier and cheaper. Battle lines would be drawn between the big breweries who could now get their product pretty much anywhere, although the 'last mile' still depended on dray horses and poor roads. This would be changing by the time of the first world war with the introduction of the internal combustion engine.

The second factor is marketing. With inland transport now so much better the free market economy could gear up a step or two. Sure there was advertising from early on, but active marketing is a different beast which didn't really get going as an industry in its own right until post first world war. Marketing folk like nothing less than vague descriptions, they like clear definitions so they can target products to the customers they think will buy them. So what is 'Mild Ale'? Ask a marketing person if you want an answer. It is, of course, a session beer, one that you can drink on a long evening at the boozer without being thrown out at 9.00 as a drunkard. It is weak, but still flavoursome, and it is dark (because the flavoursome comes from the darker-kilned and crystal malts). It isn't heavily hopped giving it a 'mild' flavour. Stout is easy - black, strong, roasty, readily identifiable; but still with some scope for descriptions - smooth, nutritious, 'does you good' - to distinguish yours from the inferior competition. Porter was a difficult one for the marketing folk, until, of course, their customers started to show a nostalgic desire for the 'ales of Old England'. To a marketing person, what's in the bottle is of secondary importance to what's on the label!

I believe it is somewhat futile to try to compare historic nomenclature of beer styles with those of modern times in anything but the broadest terms. We can dig out old recipes from big breweries, but these will mostly need interpretation and substitution as Edd is doing in his blogs. But you really can't transfer the names of beers to those of modern times. I don't care what anyone may say, but Mild Ale as we know it was not brewed before WWI. Does Mild Ale as we know it have to have a precursor?

Modern (late/post-19th century) malts (and hops) are more varied and, for the most part, more consistent than anything produced in the 18th and early 19th centuries. They can give us better control and (intentional) variety than we ever had historically (unless you consider non-hop herb and fruit additions). Our palates are also very different when compared to folk who lived two centuries ago (and, I hate to say it, largely influenced by marketeers).

I'm fascinated by the history of beer, and using the knowledge to experiment with different beers is really exciting, but let's not get too caught up with semantics. And let's not forget the primary goal is that of brewing delicious beer!

My next one's a Nut Ale; can anyone tell me the best nuts to use?!
I accept this, generally; especially the role elbowed by marketeers, in terms of confusing matters accidentally on purpose without a clue. Like some prolific plagiarisers in home-brew these days, absolute f*ckers.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:27 am

Muttonchops wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:29 pm
... I believe it is somewhat futile to try to compare historic nomenclature of beer styles with those of modern times in anything but the broadest terms. We can dig out old recipes from big breweries, but these will mostly need interpretation and substitution as Edd is doing in his blogs. But you really can't transfer the names of beers to those of modern times. I don't care what anyone may say, but Mild Ale as we know it was not brewed before WWI. Does Mild Ale as we know it have to have a precursor? ...
Whoa! That is so wrong! Although I've seen others state the same thing ("Mild" didn't exist before the World Wars). "Mild" is what people were turning to as Porter declined in popularity from about 1840-ish. Or at least they were turning to X and XX ales (coloured dark I reckon, so they don't get muddled with those despicable toffs).

To say Mild didn't exist until well into the 20th Century is as bad as those that say Mild is 19th Century (and earlier) X-ales.

X, XX, XXX, XXXX, etc. ales covered a huge family of ales of which "Mild" is sadly the last remaining example. Mild sprang from X and XX ales, but what of it's once inseparable twin, "Old Ale" (aged XXX and XXXX ales)? Also Burton Ale (aged XXXX ale, from Burton-on-Trent!), although at some point in the 17-18th Century it started to pick up the KKKK designation. And "Brown Ale", which disappeared in 18th Century and some say never came back in any recognisable form. And no doubt other ales I haven't even come across yet.


Ron Pattinson cracks on about "Imperial Mild!", but I like to think it's a bit of a joke. Or, it's very clever manipulation to get the "Craft Beer" lobby (and/or the brain-dead BJCP) behind "Mild Ale".

And May is "Mild Month" for CAMRA. Perhaps it's CAMRA recognising the threat to their namesake instead of papping on about CO2 in beer.
Last edited by PeeBee on Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:51 am

An Ankoù wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:31 pm
Fascinating thread, Peebee, I'm enjoying reading your thoughts on mild/Mild both here and elsewhere. ...
I bet you're not enjoying it as half as much as I am learning and writing about Mild! I had no idea when I started this thread that there is so much hanging on one very unassuming alcoholic beverage.

Unfortunately. I'm not the first to have prattled on about "Mild". And hopefully I wont be the last before "Mild Ale" slips into extinction as the last remaining UK representative of Ale.


Still, Porter was dragged back from oblivion, and I must get back to what I was doing with it before this "Mild" interlude.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

McMullan

Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:45 am

“Mild Ale [as we know it] was not brewed before WWI.” It helps if you can read properly, I guess. It’s not wrong at all. In terms of Mild - as we know it - as we know it - as we know it - the statement is true; according to historical brewery logs/recipes documenting changes over time. Nor was it ever claimed that ‘Mild didn't exist until well into the 20th Century’. Someone conjured up that thought then blamed someone else for it. Weird what a little illiteracy can achieve, in terms of engineering unnecessary complications :lol:

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:20 pm

McMullan wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:45 am
“Mild Ale [as we know it] was not brewed before WWI.” It helps if you can read properly, ...
"As we know it". Wow, I hadn't realised if I insert that phrase into my writing I can get away with anything. I presume "we" is a "Royal we"? Something like "'McMullan', as we know it, talks complete drivel". That won't upset you?

Anyway ... haven't spoken to my favourite Norwegian Troll in ages! How you going? :thumbsup:
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing


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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by Muttonchops » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm

[quote=PeeBee post_id=857095 time=1619429278 user_id=16274]
To say Mild didn't exist until well into the 20th Century is as bad as those that say Mild [i]is[/i] 19th Century (and earlier) X-ales.
[/quote]
OK, Peebee. Point me to a Pre-1900 recipe for a dark, flavoursome beer that is under 3.5%ABV and I'll concede.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:39 pm

Muttonchops wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm
OK, Peebee. Point me to a Pre-1900 recipe for a dark, flavoursome beer that is under 3.5%ABV and I'll concede.
Who said it was dark? Who said it was <3.5%? If you want history according to BJCP (based on what went 20 years ago represents the last 200 years) then visit their babblings at https://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf.

Actually, Edds translation of a Boddington's X isn't far off your mark: https://oldbeersandbrewing.blogspot.com ... d-ale.html. It's the one I documented a few posts back (won't be ready for two or three weeks). 1901, but what's a year or two. Note: The recipe came in for a bit of criticism as it specifies No.4 Invert for colour that isn't in the records; just looking into ways that they might of made it dark.


<EDIT: I'm sounding off about the BJCP again. Like before, I don't actually think there's much wrong with the BJCP style-guide document. It even emphasises it's about beer styles now, not what it may have been in the past. It's how people interpret the information (good or bad) that is at fault. But the authors are not guilt-free: They created the monster to do good, and because it has started to eat people they can't deny any responsibility for it. The BJCP style-guide is to control beer competitions in the USA, and has no intended relevance (that I'm aware of) outside of that context.>
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by Muttonchops » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:45 pm

McMullen...

Great picture, by the way, I loved it!

Peebee...

You are in danger here of contradicting your own previous arguments. I did say 'let's not get caught up in semantics', but I'm now going to.

Pale Ale is a compound noun, it denotes something specific. Likewise Amber Ale. They can be preceded by an adjective further describing them, e.g. mild Pale Ale to denote a lower gravity Pale Ale that isn't matured for very long. You have previously argued in other threads that this does not make them Mild Ales, Mild Ale being a compound noun that denotes a specific type of beer (you didn't quite put it like that but that was the gist of it). I wholeheartedly agreed with this, but you now seem to be arguing against it (whether by use of the adjective 'mild' or by the 'X' ratings). Perhaps you have changed your mind; you are, of course, entitled to.

History is not a nice straight line of gradual change and improvement, it is messy and changes can be sudden, marked by disasters, wars, riots, rebellions, pandemics, technological advances and changing social/religious norms. My point is that factors before, during and just after WWI resulted on one such change, however insignificant in the grand scale of things -- Mild Ale became a compound noun denoting something specific. That clear definition of Mild Ale lasted for 65 years or so until the 1980s when Mild Ale became unfashionable and all but died out until recently. I'm old enough to remember it well, served in pubs around the country but particularly the West Midlands where it remained popular for longer. People might order a pint of Mild, or perhaps a Mild and Bitter (a 'mild' version of a Black and Tan).

'Mild Ale' (the compound noun) has a particular place in history. It almost encapsulates the socio-economic-political character of an age in a glass of dark, flavoursome, refreshing, piss-water weak liquid. If we are to resurrect it from its recent undeserved unpopularity (as is being done increasingly), perhaps we should respect that and even celebrate it.

So, why does it have to be dark? Why does it have to be <3.5%ABV (4% absolute tops)? Because that's what Mild Ale is. That, anyway, is my opinion and I'm not ready to concede yet. Your (Edd's) historic recipe from 1901 might just have been Victorian (she died on the 22nd January 1901) but even so was way too strong to be a Mild Ale. A precursor? Well, maybe.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by Marshbrewer » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:21 pm

But that is to ignore Sam Smith's, Timmy Taylor and the rest who produce mild ales that are both pale and dark, and always have.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:17 pm

JJSH wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:21 pm
But that is to ignore Sam Smith's, Timmy Taylor and the rest who produce mild ales that are both pale and dark, and always have.
"Always have"??? Are you talking the exact opposite to that "Muttonchops" chimp? In which case I leave him for you to sort out! I'm describing a transition from "mild" to "Mild" where there wouldn't be any light and dark yet.

Actually my attempts to show a steady switch from light "mild" to dark "Mild" as folk migrated from dark porter, isn't digging up conclusive proof. Seems the "class divide" I would have relied on as a driving force isn't so "black and white" ('scuse pun) as I might of hoped.

I think I'll fail to join the two camps: Those that think the dinosaurs brewed and drank mild ale, and those that think they've never seen a mild ale stronger than 3.5%ABV in their local which is proof they never existed. The rift has endured this long, so I may as well accept that it'll endure a good bit longer despite my efforts and efforts of countless others.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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