Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by f00b4r » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:12 am

Watch this space...
I’ve been talking with Fuggledog and have some info from him on making historic malts, how they taste and even a video of him making some. It might change your mind on making some versus trying to recreate some, although a side by side comparison would let you know how your thoughts compare.

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:24 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:38 pm
My original reason for starting this thread was I wasn't happy that my Durden Park Beer Circle inspired "1850 Whitbread London Porter", which wasn't as lush as my earlier 1700s porter from 100% brown malt (contrived "recipe"). In particular I didn't care for the strong harsh charcoal elements introduced by the black malt. So I was developing schemes to temper the black malt in my next attempt.

One candidate to try was a recipe on Edd's Website: T & G Greenall's 1862 Porter. It packed in all the schemes I was thinking of; Chevallier barley malt, traditional (diastatic) brown malt, black malt used in other than the boil <sic; should say "mash">. It had got the lot. ...
Another handy snippet I came across to support my thinking also came from a blog site, Ed again, but a different Ed (only one "d"):

The black malt in the copper mystery solved

Ed's blog is also full of other interesting bits and bobs.
Last edited by PeeBee on Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:39 pm

More stuff relevant from Ed to this thread:

The return of historic porter
which links:
Brown stout porter
Making diastatic brown malt
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Contrived Assembly of Historic Malts Part I

Post by PeeBee » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:43 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:21 pm
An outline of how I go about "contriving" a historic malt. ...
I've finally given up trying to fix the picture posting bugs in that old post. So I've put it here instead!
Distribution Curve with Positive Skew.jpg
[EDIT: This piccie is linked to by the post that should be displaying it - that works!]
Last edited by PeeBee on Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:26 pm

I have a thread along these lines on that "other" forum. But about just "Mild" not stout and porter. It attracted the attention of a certain Ron Pattinson ("patto1ro"). If you can bring yourself to look at that forum it's here: Victorian Mild!

He's also added comments to my "Victorian Bitter" thread.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:53 pm

I've been chasing answers to why I was disappointed with "everyone's' favourite porter recipe" namely Durden Park Beer Circle's "Whitbread's 1850 London Porter". The possible answer could be judged as "disturbing".

I'd drawn up a short list of possible guilty elements:
  1. Switching from 100% "traditionally kilned" Brown Malt to a much smaller amount of "modern" Brown Malt missed out on a lot of "lush" flavouring.
  2. The modern malts available to us simply don't have the desired qualities of the ingredients back then.
  3. The use of Black Malt as a colourant was perhaps too high for my tastes.
On the first suspect it appears that "modern" kilned brown malt (using the rotating cylinder kilns established for black malt) didn't play a part until near the end of the 19th century.

The second suspect relies on the commonest malt available back then was made from Chevallier barley. That malt has a very dominant and lushly flavoured quality which perhaps masked the harsh charcoal (my view) flavours of black malt. Chevallier barley malt was only just establishing its dominance of the market early in the days of black malt, but at that time amounts of black malt used was 1-2%, or less.

On the last suspect (which is personal preference, but only a minority of drinkers actually like a lot of black malt) it seems small errors crept into the conversion of brewery sized batches to home-brew sized batches. It makes little difference to significant proportions of malt, but to small additions …

The Durden Park Beer Circle's "Whitbread's 1850 London Porter" recipe has 5.4% black malt. But pouring over Ron Pattinson's work (which is pretty extensive!) I could not find a formulation in 1850 containing more than 3.3% (it wasn't until the 1870s that Whitbread used 5.5%).

So, the solution to my lack of enthusiasm for the 1850 porter recipe is: Adjust the black malt content to more realistic figures; emulate the use of traditionally kilned brown malt (i.e. stop using modern brown malts); and use Chevallier barley malt.

The other option is dump the 1850 recipe and pick an 1834 one: About 12% (traditionally kilned) brown malt and 1.7% black malt. And maybe Chevallier malt was rising to prominence by then too?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by An Ankoù » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:39 am

My DPBC 1850 was all bottled in April 2020 and goes from strength to strength. I hadn't discovered Chevallier then, and I'm generally blown away with it now, so I'm certainly going to try in in my next batch. I might even make some brown malt as your enthusiasm is catching. I'll stick with the black, though. It really mellows out after about 9 months in the bottle.
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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:50 am

I only brewed mine last August and yes, the black malt flavour is moderating. I'm still not ecstatic about it but more than happy to drink it! I think coming at from having brewed the 100% brown malt 18th century version (contrived brown malt emulation) spoilt me - I know how good Porter can be (or at least have a hint).

Nearest I could get date-wise to DPBC's 1850 recipe going through Ron Pattinson's scribblings (sourced from Whitbread's brewing records) was 14th Sep 1850; OG 1062.3, Pale 77.86%, Brown 18.85%, Black 3.30%.

The nearest I could find to DPBC's recipe going through Ron Pattinson's scribblings was 1877; OG 1055.1, Pale 79.78%, Brown14.71%, Black 5.52%. OG is taking a knock in these later years.

Both these recipes are for "running" porter. Appears they gave up with long periods of vatting by 1850. The 1834 recipe I quoted earlier would have a "running" and "keeping" version. The "keeping" version would be vatted for a year or more and quite likely have a Brett character. The two versions would be blended in the cask at the brewery (not the pub, 1:2 keeping to running, was usual, apparently).
Last edited by PeeBee on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:32 pm

I should have paid more attention to the article I posted earlier: The black malt in the copper mystery solved

Following some of the links gains all sorts of useful information about black malt:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017 ... stout.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2008 ... ntury.html
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:13 pm

I'd written off "Milds" as a suitable subject to include with historic Stouts & Porters on account of them only appearing fairly recently. The "milds" spoken of historically had no resemblance to what might be called "Mild" today.

Historically, what many are calling "Mild" (actually unaged "ales", beverages that had once been considered to have no hops like "beers" have, but by 18th century "ales" had some hops, just not as many as "beer") were pale. The toffs drank pale beer, everyone else drank dark beer.

But by mid-1800s porter drinking was in decline. People were moving away to drink "Mild". But hang on, that doesn't add up? The hoy-polloi ain't going to drink pale ales (used in the descriptive sense; Pale Ale is a misnomer 'cos it's a beer not an ale!). The solution is simple: Colour the "mild" (unaged) ales! And call them "Milds".

This is proving to be a little controversial. Many people believe any historic ale with a name made up of "Xs" is a "Mild" so it's quite legitimate having a 10% ABV ale called "Mild". What I say to that is "complete and utter hogwash"! (Actually I'd say something ruder, but not here). An unaged "XXX" or "XXXX" ale (unaged to get the "mild" label) will be horrid, and will need a bit of aging, at which point it's no longer "mild". A lot of people will refuse to accept that, especially those who think Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby is a mild! :evil:

So what of the colour? Well the evidence is there, it just needs building up in quantity. The evidence of colouring is often hidden as in a link in my last post (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017 ... stout.html - it's about stout but easy to draw conclusions from).

This is just building up to my next post which is a 1901 Boddington's Mild. It really is a mild, but I hadn't got the colouring sorted out a week ago.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by An Ankoù » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:31 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:13 pm
I'd written off "Milds" as a suitable subject to include with historic Stouts & Porters on account of them only appearing fairly recently. The "milds" spoken of historically had no resemblance to what might be called "Mild" today.

A lot of people will refuse to accept that, especially those who think Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby is a mild! :evil:
Fascinating thread, Peebee, I'm enjoying reading your thoughts on mild/Mild both here and elsewhere. Given that the modern usage of the term is now a style in it's own right, and that there seem to be both dark and light "modern" milds, why do you say that SH Dark Ruby isn't a mild?
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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:55 pm

An Ankoù wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:31 pm
... why do you say that SH Dark Ruby isn't a mild?
It's a flimsy disguised marketing bluff. A deception.

Based on the fallacy of "X-ale" being a "Mild", so therefore the equivalent of an "XXX" ale can be a mild too (actually, an XX ale could sneak in at 6% ABV, but that's by the way!). A beer of that quality (I presume it is "quality") would be a waste if drunk young, therefore it isn't "mild" and loses all claim to be a "Mild".

Never mind that the recipe was created in the 1920s (when 6% ABV would be rip-roaringly strong, the equivalent of an XXXX ale in its time?) and was harking back to a time when crystal malt was barely used.

"Running" (i.e. "mild") porters could be 6% ABV, so I'm treading a hazardous path! But Dark Ruby is still a deception, and I don't like deceptions. Especially deceptions that may of swayed me! It's the equal of fraudulently using my credit card!


But when viewed as a 1920s deception, and not really a "Mild", I'm sure SH Dark Ruby is very pleasant.

I'm not at that "elsewhere" here. It was fun when I could argue* with Ron Pattinson, but he was only a fleeting visitor. But I can claim to have quadrupled his posting score on that site! :D

<*EDIT: Teesh! You don't "argue" with Ron! You debate, and hope he's listening to you.>
Last edited by PeeBee on Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:56 am

Back to Boddington's 1901 X Mild Ale. The recipe is on Edd's blog: https://oldbeersandbrewing.blogspot.com ... d-ale.html. I convert this to my worksheets (from Beersmith):
Boddingtons X 1901 worksheets (two pages).JPG
I've used grain I have available, all British barley, all Crisp malting. Apparently the three grains represent three sources of grain in the original record (UK, USA and Middle East), but (according to Ron Pattinson) its a fib and all the grain for Boddington's came from California. Who cares! I'm just for cutting the proportion of the very domineering (and excellent!) Chevallier barley. Wherever it came from it was malted in the UK (RP). The hops also represent sources in America, the UK and the Continent (the UK was not self-sufficient in grain or hops at that time). I've used all English hops, perhaps a mistake because they probably have far more favour and aroma than those used originally.

The home-made Invert Sugar wasn't a great success. It was supermarket golden syrup, with a dash of blackstrap molasses to put some "raw" cane sugar elements in it (and colour), then baked in an oven (115°C) for a couple of hours. Never got the colour up, but the flavour increased loads (golden syrup on steroids!). The technique is totally "no boil", but needs more work.

Its fermented out:
Boddington's X iii.JPG
Two-to-three weeks in cask/keg should see it ready for drinking.

It's obviously very pale. I see why Edd specified No.4 Invert now (although the record only says "Invert"). I must quiz Edd whether the goings on in this record http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017 ... stout.html also applied to their Milds?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Milds - Questions, questions!

Post by PeeBee » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:48 pm

On colouring "Milds"; We know modern milds are often coloured with Invert Sugar (No.3 and No.4) and crystal malts. But historical Mild never seems to have enough sugar (it had been allowed since 1847, nothing to do with the 1880 "free mash tun act" as I might of said earlier in the thread) and crystal malt, although that malt was starting to be around mid-1800s doesn't appear much in Mild recipes before the 20th century.

Apparently, what you are not supposed to say is: Mild relies on roast grains for colour, or: Mild evolved from porter. But what I'm picking up is the use of black malt to colour mild (black malt was "invented" in 1817 to replace the colourants in porter banned in 1816), and not in the mash-tun (see link at end of last post), and use of traditional brown malt (very low amounts) as a colourant: Both used in Porter to keep the colour right (and flavour in the case of Porter).

How much of this went on?

There is also black caramel colouring which could be added even to the finished ale (avoiding the usual sources of information). When was this allowed again and how much did it go on?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Historic Porter's, Stouts and Milds - Brewing Methods

Post by PeeBee » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:55 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:55 pm
... Based on the fallacy of "X-ale" being a "Mild", ...
I should be more careful what I scribble: The term "X-Ale" is used by many to mean single X designated ales, whereas I'm using it to mean all X designated ales (X, XX, XXX, XXXX, etc.). I have no issue with single-X (and perhaps XX) ales being considered as precursors to "Mild". They were too weak in alcohol, and being ales too low in hops, to keep very long and must be sold "mild" (unaged). But other members of the X family (XXX, XXXX, etc.) were strong in alcohol, probably had high enough hop rates as a preservative, and would probably taste quite nasty if served "mild" so would more likely be keeping ales, or "stale". I cannot believe such ales can be precursors to Mild!

It's the joke-like misinterpretation of these strong (and most likely stored) X designated ales as "Milds" that winds me up! An analogy I've used before is birds are popularly thought to descend from dinosaurs, so using the same argument that all X designated ales are "Milds", Tyrannosaurus Rex is a bird! [-(
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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