What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

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Silver_Is_Money
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:42 pm

Some ~acid quantities whereby to reduce your 186 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity to about 22 mg/L (ppm) for specifically the case of treating 5 US gallons:

5.4 mL 88% Lactic Acid
6.0 mL 80% Lactic Acid
17.0 mL CRS/AMS
56.8 mL 10% Phosphoric Acid
17.0 mL 30% Phosphoric Acid
5.1 mL 75% Phosphoric Acid
4.2 mL 85% Phosphoric Acid
4.75 grams Citric Acid (anhydrous)

After any of the above additions the room temperature water pH reading should be ~5.5.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:19 pm

OK thanks for the info! Looks like I am going to have to go with the phosphoric acid as I cannot get the UK stuff here. I am planning on using it for all water...mash - sparge and top up if needed. Right now I am doing a firkin of cask ale (or 2 pins) at a time, so need 10.5 US gallons beer.



I bought some acid and it will only cost around 50 cents a brew.

Hopefully that will all work out OK. The brewery I am planning will not be for a few more years so will have time to practice --that is added to my near 15 years of doing this already.

Thanks again everyone!

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 pm

Huf,

Thanks for posting the analysis. I have had a look at the posting and my concerns are unchanged. I do not agree with Eric on his statement that US and UK waters are differrent. Most potable waters are produced from relatively swallow depths and both US and UK waters are similar in many rsepects, but as ever it depends on the surface minerology. Assuming that you are not using a water softener( as Eric alluded to which is highly relevant) then your results still pose a few questions. Were the chloride level to be inthe 20's (as mg/L) then the ion balance would be much more in balance. This is the sort of concentration that I would expect. However the alkalinity still is a mystery . One possible explanation is that your well water may be producing from Greensand. Greensand is the early version of ion exchange media and possibly you water is having some of the alkalinity derived from sodium exahange. If your total alkalinity is correct at about 186 mg/L as CaCO3 then this would indicate and alkalinity of about 110 mg/L as CO3.
To be honest the imbalance with the TH and the alkalinity, coupled with the cation/ anion imbalance pushes me more towards an analylitcal error. I have never seen an imabalnce between TH and Alkalinity where the TA exceeds the TH as CaCO3. I also think the chloride is a little low so it may be a combination.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 pm

I do not know the numbers look odd. I am still getting my head around of lot of this water stuff as I just started diving into it once I had the thoughts of opening up a brewery in the spare building we have here. But whatever my well water is , it seems to be making some great Ales - especially Yorkshire bitters. I do not use a water softener and I only put a filter on the end of my hose when filling up the brewing vessels. This filtered water is what I sent to Ward labs for the analysis since that is what I use in my brewing.

Currently, I have still been boiling and racking off to reduce the Bicarbonates. I just bough some 85% Phosphoric Acid and will start doing some tests on that in the next few months. I will post a update on how that is going when I get there.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by An Ankoù » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:00 pm

Huf wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:42 am
The more I look into this I think it is just easier to get a RO system. Anyone know of UK brewery that uses RO?
alcium phosp
Even if you use CRS you're going to need some kind of water analysis so that you know how much to use to get rid of a known amount of bicarbonate by precipitating it out as Calcium Sulphate. It doesn't have to be sulphate, though. Calcium phosphate is also insoluble in water so just add phosphoric acid. Northern Brewer is an American company, I believe, and they do 10% food grade phosphoric acid. How much to add is the same question you would have with CRS. Your man Gordon Strong, principle author of your BJCP, uses RO water for everything and builds back the mineral profile. Not I thing I'd want to do, but what do I know?
https://www.northernbrewer.com/collecti ... 0-solution
I don't know of a UK brewery that uses RO, I think it would be too expensive.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Mon May 03, 2021 10:29 pm

I just make a new batch of the exact same bitter using Phosphoric acid instead of boiling. It should be ready in a few weeks an I will post update on how it tastes.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by killer » Thu May 06, 2021 9:41 am

An Ankoù wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:00 pm
Huf wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:42 am
The more I look into this I think it is just easier to get a RO system. Anyone know of UK brewery that uses RO?
alcium phosp
Even if you use CRS you're going to need some kind of water analysis so that you know how much to use to get rid of a known amount of bicarbonate by precipitating it out as Calcium Sulphate. It doesn't have to be sulphate, though. Calcium phosphate is also insoluble in water so just add phosphoric acid. Northern Brewer is an American company, I believe, and they do 10% food grade phosphoric acid. How much to add is the same question you would have with CRS. Your man Gordon Strong, principle author of your BJCP, uses RO water for everything and builds back the mineral profile. Not I thing I'd want to do, but what do I know?
https://www.northernbrewer.com/collecti ... 0-solution
I don't know of a UK brewery that uses RO, I think it would be too expensive.

You will need an analysis to know how to treat your water. At the very least a Salifert Kit to determine your alkalinity which will help you get your mash and sparge pHs right. You definitely want plenty of Calcium in there for all but the most flavourless of beers.

I don’t quite understand the statement of “precipitating Calcium as Sulphate”. CRS works by turning the Bicarbonate part of alkalinity (typically but not exclusively Calcium Bicarbonate at tap water pH) into water and Carbon dioxide. The Calcium part will form a mixture of soluble Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride which can both add flavour to the beer, help with mash pH, clarity and yeast flocculation via the Calcium. Calcium Sulphate, while sometimes tricky to dissolve initially as a solid is soluble (> 2 g/L) well above the levels any reasonable brewer would want, especially if it is formed using soluble precursors such as CRS/ or sulphuric acid.

Several small French breweries use RO water – I’d be surprised if at least some small English breweries didn’t. You can set up an RO system for a 20 hL brewery for less than 20k.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Mon May 17, 2021 1:23 am

Well we drank the Ale last night for first time using the phosphoric acid method instead of boiling.The best bittter was on last night for sure. I gave my guests a cold lager to start them off (they are yanks) ..then transitioned to the cask Ale and let them decide what to drink after that. No one went back to the lager again all night..many compliments on people who have really drank a lot of different beers in their life. I think this best bitter will be my flagship beer when I start the brewery (getting closer)

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