What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
Huf
Tippler
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:15 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:08 pm

OK - I got my water report from Wards lab. So based on this what would people in the USA do to their water for a bitter?
using jims water calculator it seems like I only need to add 40G Gypsum and pinch of Chlroide for my 83 liters.even without boiling (is that right)?

I ran this through a filter from outside hose before putting it in a bottle to send the the labs as this is how I use my brew water.

PH 7.8
TDS 254
Cations/Anins . Me/L 4.8 / 4.4

Below is all in PPM

Sodium 46
Potasium 2
Calcium 38
Magnesium 10
Total Hardness 137
Nitrate < 0.1
Sulfate 10
Chloride 2
Carbonate < 1.0
Bicarbonate 226
Total Alkalinity 186

##

The thing is . this is well water., so I know it will change year around a bit. As I said, I want to make a brewery here some day , so only thing I can thing to do it use RO water or test every few months with a test kit or send to ward labs a few times a year.

Thanks

WallyBrew
Hollow Legs
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:30 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by WallyBrew » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:33 pm

you show the cations/anions as 4.8/4.4

from the figures you have supplied this is wrong it is 4.77/3.97
which would not be considered balanced.

I would suggest you ask Wards if they are happy with the figures they have supplied and assuming you have not made a typo in entering them.

Carnot
Piss Artist
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:07 pm

Wallybrew is spot on. There are not enough anions. My guess is that the chloride and possibly the sulphate is too low. The cations look about right. How was the Total Hardness and alkalinity reported (as CaCO3?)

Huf
Tippler
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:15 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 pm

Total Hardness and alkalinity reported as CaCO3 is 186

And yes is shows
Cations/ Anions , me/L as 4.8 / 4.4 <<slight correction from last post

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:57 pm

I've begun to try anhydrous citric acid. I first added a few grams of it to the mash water of a Kolsch brewed in mineralized RO water, and found that it dropped the mash pH noticeably more than anticipated. I've since experimented repeatedly with it in the neutralizing of the very high bicarbonate in my well water (436 mg/L bicarbonate as analyzed by Ward Labs) whereby to determine its relative acid strength at nominal mash pH's, and confirmed it to be noticeably stronger an acid than a handful of mash pH assistant software packages (my own included) plus one that is online indicated. I've also repeated my experiments using water carefully made up to a calculated bicarbonate level with baking soda, just in case Ward Labs got it wrong on my well water analysis (whereby this confirmed that Ward Labs did not get it wrong). All well water and baking soda water experiments were backed up by duplicate albeit for 88% lactic acid addition experiments as controls. I've recently modified citric acid in my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet accordingly. The other softwares remain unchanged in this regard. The change is made in the value of citric acids "pKa3", whereby I found several sources which indicate a different pKa3 for citric acid than has been commonly found in text books. I accepted their revised pKa3 value finding, and bingo, it highly correlated with my experimental findings...

As to the Kolsch, many told me aforehand that I would taste the citric acid in it, but I did not detect it. Subsequently, in reply to my having mentioned this, a forum mod on a popular brewing forum here in the States has mentioned that for awhile he was of the routine habit of adding up to 10 grams of citric acid to his 10 gallon output batches, and likewise he indicated that he never tasted its presence.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

Huf
Tippler
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:15 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:40 pm

Where is your Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet? Also, wards gave me my Bicarbonate HC03 in ppm not mg/l as you have -- it is 226ppm for my well water.
Before i sent my sample in I ran the water through my hose with a simple filter on the end of it. This is the way I fill my kettles so figured to give them what is coming out with the filter on end.
The reason why i wish to nail this with my well water is because some day I wish to open a brewery on my land and need consistent results. So far my beer has been tasting very good just with the boiling and decanting method. But looking for other methods once I scale it up more.
Last edited by Huf on Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:57 pm

Huf wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:40 pm
Where is your Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet?
https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/ (note that MME is driven by Alkalinity, which is derived 'mainly' from Bicarbonate. There is a conversion calculator on the "Water" page (tab, sheet).

Indeed, I just reviewed my Ward Labs analysis, and it does state ppm. For the case of water mineralization, mg/L and ppm are for most practical purposes considered to be nigh-on identical. ppm is weight per unit weight and mg/L is weight per unit volume. But for water 1 mL weighs right close to 1 gram, making the equivalence assumption a generally highly valid assumption.

Something of interest to you will be that ward labs reports only the S (sulfur) in SO4, and their shorthand for this is SO4-S. Multiply their result by 3 to get SO4.

Ditto for the reported NO3-N, whereby they are only reporting the N (nitrogen). Multiply their finding by 4.4 to convert this one into NO3.

The reasoning behind this is that Ward Labs deals 99.9% with farmers asking for what is in their water/soil. And farmers only want to know the S and N quantities. So that is what Ward Labs reports.
Last edited by Silver_Is_Money on Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

Carnot
Piss Artist
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:32 pm

Huf

I do not wish to be unkind but it might be a good idea if you scanned your water analysis and posted it as jpeg because to be blunt it is a dog's breakfast. There is nothing worse than a mulitude of different reporting units that are not disclosed. Nothing makes much sense as you have now stated that the TH and alkalinity are the same at 186 (as Ca CO3). Then we have confusing nitrate and sulpahte determinations. The cations and anions do not add up and the bicarbonate makes no sense at all. At this stage I am more than a little suspicious of the alkalinity determination. The earlier TH of 137 looks about right at 137 (as CaCO3) but I cannot reconcile the alkalinity.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:37 am

Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.118(Mg++)
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 2.4973(38) + 4.118(10)
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 136

So we can accept their 137 ppm for total hardness as being correct.

Sulfate = 30 mg/L (ppm)
Nitrate is likely not more than 1 mg/L (ppm)

If Bicarbonate is 226 mg/L as reported, then Alkalinity at 186 mg/L is likely a valid valuation. At pH 7.8 essentially all of the Alkalinity is from HCO3- (Bicarbonate) ion. There is no extant CO3-- (Carbonate) ion species at pH 7.8, as it only begins to appear at above pH 8.3.

The sad part is the Ward Labs reported 4.8/4.4 cation/anion balance ratio. Ward Labs should not have accepted this great a disparity, and should have re-analyzed this water, but in fairness, perhaps the sample size was insufficient to permit a second full analysis. I came across at least one post to a US forum whereby a guy called (or emailed) Ward Labs and complained due to a similar disparity and they re-analyzed at no cost.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

User avatar
PeeBee
Under the Table
Posts: 1571
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:09 pm

Because Silver_Is_Money didn't actually say it (but I'm usually "excused" for talking rubbish!):

The conversion factor for "as CaCO3" to "HCO3-" is 1.22. Below pH 8.3, that is.

So: 186 x 1.22 = 226 (i.e. the figures in the report).

(Things other than HCO3- cause "alkalinity", but they're not usually found in drinking water!). Some things in water reports are calculated from other values, not actually tested for.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Carnot
Piss Artist
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:55 pm

Just an observation. If the TH is 137, the Ca and Mg would account for aALL the hardness cations, as carbonate. The alkalinity of 186 suggests alkalinity from Na and K which is rather unusual to say the least as both are highly soluble. A sulphate of 30 mg/L would fit will with some of the Sodium with the balance being chloride; chloride looks a little on the low side. The Ca and Mg is accounted for - the Na and K is not so clear. You need to remember that the solubilty of N and K salts are much higher than Ca and Mg, that means that they tend The appear less in the water stream. (think about it). The bicarbonate has been calculated from the alkalinity. I am suspcious of the alkalinity and chloride. Here is an analysis of a Mississippi water

Ca 46
Mg

Carnot
Piss Artist
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:58 pm

Sorry pressed the wrong key

Ca 46
Mg 14
Na 32
K 2.7


Bicarbonate 154
Sulpahte 67
Chloride 34
Nitrate 3.6

pH 7.5
Total Hardness

Carnot
Piss Artist
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:06 pm

Did it again

TH 172
TDS 304

all as mg/L

This is not the same as Huf's water but gives some clues. I have seem any similar waters in my time and I have never seen the alkalinity greater than the TH in raw water. When I have it has been in a cooling system that is precipitating calcium carbonate due to solubility issues. I am not sure wht the lab has done but I remain suspicious of the alkalinity deternination. I also think the chloride is suspiciously low. It is typically in double figures.

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Eric » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:50 pm

Carnot wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:06 pm
Did it again

TH 172
TDS 304

all as mg/L

This is not the same as Huf's water but gives some clues. I have seem any similar waters in my time and I have never seen the alkalinity greater than the TH in raw water. When I have it has been in a cooling system that is precipitating calcium carbonate due to solubility issues. I am not sure wht the lab has done but I remain suspicious of the alkalinity deternination. I also think the chloride is suspiciously low. It is typically in double figures.
Might I suggest USA has waters the like of which cannot been found in the British Isles. Also, it is potentially possible the water passed through a water softener a bit short of salt.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Huf
Tippler
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:15 pm

Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:46 pm


Post Reply