Extract potential

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PeeBee
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Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:26 pm

Hi. If I've got a sugar rated with an extract of about 325 degrees litre per kilo. How do I work out it's extract potential in SG?

It's actually Invert Sugar which is given an extract value is from a range of 321.5-326.5 ° litre per kg.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by Eric » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:49 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:26 pm
Hi. If I've got a sugar rated with an extract of about 325 degrees litre per kilo. How do I work out it's extract potential in SG?

It's actually Invert Sugar which is given an extract value is from a range of 321.5-326.5 ° litre per kg.
Isn't that what you have given? 1 kg will provide 325 litre degrees, so SG will be 1.0325 if dissolved to produce 1 litre of solution, 1.00325 in 10 litres and so forth.

A brewer's degree is 1000 x (SG - 1)
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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:51 pm

1 kilo in 1 litre would give you an SG of 1.325.

So 10 g (say) in 1 litre would give you 1.0033. 120g in a litre would give you 1.040.

Have you forgotten how to use Google, Mr PB?!!

Guy

Ps Hope I'm right, if not I'll feel really stupid!

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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:52 pm

Oh, Eric's replied. One of us is a factor of 10 out!

Guy

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:33 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:52 pm
Oh, Eric's replied. One of us is a factor of 10 out!

Guy
'Twas problem I was having - decimal point just wouldn't do things I wuz confident in! So, either you or Eric has a magnitude of ten problem? Meanwhile, I'm no better off! I could go downstairs with a beaker, some sugar and a hydrometer I suppose, and figure out the decimal point for me-self. What am I saying - not a hydrometer, my pycnometer bottle! 8)
guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:51 pm
... Have you forgotten how to use Google, Mr PB?!! ...
Everything seem to revolve around "PPG" (points per pound per gallon) for some reason :roll: , at which point my brain seemed to have an irredeemable shutdown.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:28 pm

Let's wait until Eric gets back.

A kilo of sugar in a litre of water at 1.0325 doesn't seem right to me.

Guy

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Re: Extract potential

Post by Eric » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:00 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:28 pm
Let's wait until Eric gets back.

A kilo of sugar in a litre of water at 1.0325 doesn't seem right to me.

Guy
Yes, I'm wrong. Sorry. The formula I gave was correct, just put a zero where it shouldn't have been.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:13 am

Hey, we haven't resolved this yet!

Eric's admitted his explanation was out by magnitude of 10, but that only emphasises the trouble I was having!

We've got a invert sugar rated as "325 ° litre per kg", so far I'm shown this should be "SG 1.033 potential extract" (rounding up to 3 decimals)? But there's a magnitude of ten difference in the two values and 1.033 seems a bit low, plain sugar (sucrose) is 1.046 apparently.

I suspect "PPG" is going to raise it's head again!

And why can't I find the answer on Google search? (Scratch that, that's wandering off subject a bit).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:49 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:13 am
Hey, we haven't resolved this yet!

Eric's admitted his explanation was out by magnitude of 10, but that only emphasises the trouble I was having!

We've got a invert sugar rated as "325 ° litre per kg", so far I'm shown this should be "SG 1.033 potential extract" (rounding up to 3 decimals)? But there's a magnitude of ten difference in the two values and 1.033 seems a bit low, plain sugar (sucrose) is 1.046 apparently.

I suspect "PPG" is going to raise it's head again!

And why can't I find the answer on Google search? (Scratch that, that's wandering off subject a bit).
What makes you think your sugar has a 'potential extract' of 1.033, PeeBee? The SG of any solution you make up with the sugar will be dependant (obviously) on how much sugar and how much water.

Your sugar rated at 325° litre/kg will give you any SG you want when dissolved, depending on the amount of sugar and the volume of water--repeating myself, I know, but sometimes worthwhile. If you dissolve 1kg of your sugar in 1 L of water you'll have a solution of SG 1.325. After that, the rest is arithmetic. For example, 1kg dissolved in 2L water will have an SG of 1.(325/2), which is 1.163. 0.5kg dissolved in 2L water will have an SG of 1.(163/2), which is 1.082. Etc, etc.

Does this help? How do you want to use the sugar?

As a point of interest, 1kg of household white sugar dissolved in 1L of water will give you an SG of 1.375.

Guy

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:20 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:49 am
...
Your sugar rated at 325° litre/kg will give you any SG you want when dissolved, depending on the amount of sugar and the volume of water--repeating myself, I know, but sometimes worthwhile. If you dissolve 1kg of your sugar in 1 L of water you'll have a solution of SG 1.325. ...
I think you are missing that little "°" sign (degrees, I should stop using it as I believe some smart phones will not display some symbols). Eric knows it's there 'cos he quotes the definition of "brewer's degrees"). And I'm trying to recreate the "sugar", not make anything from the sugar (yet)

Now don't get out-smarted by the certified head-case, it's bad for your street cred! (Okay, I'm not "certified" 'cos I haven't a paper "certificate"; but I have got the plastic ID card!).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:37 pm

Hi PeeBee

I think you've got yourself in a muddle. I haven't missed the ° symbol. Or perhaps I'm muddled. We need Eric!

Have a read of this.

What do you mean, 'you're trying to recreate the sugar'? Are you growing your own sugar cane?!!!

Guy

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:52 pm

Ah, you rotters. You've left me to sort out 1st year mathematical problems when you know I'm only 3! Anyway:

Got it!

Someone ("leedsandy" on May 31, 2011) on a Beersmith forum wrote:
454g of sucrose yields 46 gravity points in 3785ml of water
Therefore 1000g yields 46/454x1000 = 101 gravity points in 3785 ml
Therefore 1000g yields 101x3785/1000 = 384 gravity points in 1000 ml
(My italics).

So (working backwards):

blah, blah, blah.

325 degrees per litre per kilo is 39 "gravity points" or 1.039 ... whatevers. It is some "American" fantasy (1 gallon = 3.785 litres!) but I got there in the end.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:12 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:37 pm
...
What do you mean, 'you're trying to recreate the sugar'? Are you growing your own sugar cane?!!!
I wasn't thinking of growing my own sugarcane, but now you've mentioned it ...

I'm mucking with Invert Sugars (Victorian Mild recipes). And being able to enter in Invert Sugars (1-4) based on Ragus info into my recipe builder (I use Beersmith) will let me judge what to expect (and what to tweak) from my "home-made" creations.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Extract potential

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:13 pm

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about! I don't even know what 'extract potential' means in relation to sugar. It's a useful bit of info w.r.t. malt. Tells you how much extract you might expect to get with a perfect mash.

What does 1.039 mean? How is it related to your sugar at 325°L/Kg? 1.039 is just a number. It means nothing without knowing how much sugar in how much water. To get an SG of 1.039 from a sugar of 325 degrees/kilo you'd have to dissolve 120g of the sugar in a litre of water.

And yes, 454g of household sugar in 3785 ml of water will, indeed, give you an SG of 1.045/46. So what? Crazy numbers. And 532g in 4632ml of water will give you an SG of 1.043. Just numbers. You can go on ad infinitum messing around with the numbers. Once again, your sugar, at 325°L/Kg will give you an SG of 1.325 when you dissolve 1Kg in 1L of water.

Have a look at Graham Wheeler's Beer Engine. Available here. Try putting in some sugar and water figures, BE does all the calculations for you.

Guy

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Re: Extract potential

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:43 pm

The 325°L/Kg is just a number. That degree sign ("Brewer's Degrees") lets us know the calculation has already stepped into the netherworld of specific gravity; ratios, not mass and volume stuff (do you want me to go over my work with pycnometer bottles again? :out ).

As for 1.039 ... it's the extract potential, it's ... (Carol ... have you got me gun? ... I've had enough now).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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