Lessons Learned

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
ElthamBrewer
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Lessons Learned

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:36 pm

Hi all,

One thing I'd love to hear from the members of this forum is how they have improved their brewing once they've got the basics sorted. As context, I have about 30 AG brews under my belt with my Grainfather, mostly recipes from GW's BYOBRA book. I'm now producing "consistently good" beer, as in it's consistent and I like drinking it. But how do you keep on improving? Are there still big leaps to make, for example I moved to a fermentation fridge which made a massive difference, or is it more an accumulation of minor tweaks over a decade? I'm not sure if it'd be helpful to have a description of my process here, happy for bricks to be thrown at it!

Thanks in advance!

richard080561
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by richard080561 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 pm

Have you got in to water treatment yet? That was my next big step after the fermentation fridge.
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ElthamBrewer
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:55 pm

Thanks Richard - being in London dealing with hard water is a bit of a nightmare. As to process, and please feel free to critique here:

Grain:
- I tend to use pre-crushed grain rather than whole, and go through a 25KG bag over about 6 months. I know the American's per Palmer et al tend to believe that grain "goes off" in a matter off weeks, but I store a bag in a cool room in a sealed container and haven't noticed any difference regarding freshness. Similarly, I don't control for crush size since I buy pre-crushed, but also haven't had an issue in the Grainfather with stuck sparges apart from maybe the end of the bag when it's more dust.

Water:
- I control my water using Graham's water treatment calculator. I won't say that I measure on every brew the hardness and calcium levels using the Salifert kits, or the resulting mash pH, but perhaps every couple of months I see if there's any variation.

Mash:
- The GF does good temperature control on the mash process, so my initial strike temperature and then mash temperature are close to 67 C and are consistent due to recirculation. I mash for about 90 minutes.
- Sparge speed does seem to vary depending on the size of the grain bill - sometimes it's pouring through, other times more of a gradual drip. But apart from a disaster with a wheat beer I don't think sparging is problematic. Brewhouse efficiency tends to be 75 - 80%.

Boil:
- Hops I keep in the fridge, as SWMBO doesn't have any spare freezer space. I do adjust for alpha acid proportions between what's printed on the bag and the list in GW's book so I get the right bitterness etc. I tend to use whole leaf rather than pellet, in a spider as I dislike scraping bits of hop of the bottom of the GF and am paranoid about them burning on the element.
- I get a good boil, for about 60 minutes as I find longer doesn't make a difference and I prefer to more wort in the fermentor than evaporate it off.
- Post-boil I don't tend to whirlpool or leave it to settle, I just go straight into the fermentor.
- I do no-chill, as I find the counterflow chiller is a pain in the posterior.

Ferment:
- Fermentation is in a fridge with an inkbird and a greenhouse heater, at a constant 20 degrees. I do have a fish-tank aeration device, but find it doesn't make a massive difference.
- I tend to put in yeast vitamins. I like a drier finish, with good flocculation, so go for WLP007 with S04 as a fallback. I find S04 gives a really yeasty flavour to the beer though.
- I ferment for 2 weeks, mostly as it gives me a Saturday to Saturday routine. I transfer in a king keg - oxygen is probably introduced here.
- I scrap the trub off the bottom and repitch the yeast - one process change I'm planning is to rinse it properly, although I'm contemplating the risk of contamination there.

Condition and Dispense:
- Conditioning, I follow GWs' advice of one week in the keg per 10 gravity points of OG.
- Dispense - This is the current pain point. I have some modified king kegs (the lid has a pressure gauge, valve for releasing gas, and a gas quick disconnect so I can use use my C02 tank to charge it). I've found that using priming sugar means I get a big yeast bed in the king keg, so I prefer to use the CO2 although it's a nightmare in a king keg as 1) you get 10 PSI of top pressure forcing the beer out so the glass is 90% head, 10% beer; 2) there's no temperature control so the summer months are interesting when it's 20 + degrees outside.

Anyway, that's a long old post - sorry for the length but hopefully it gives a bit of meat on the bones.

guypettigrew
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:05 pm

An initial few thoughts. You treat your London water, so that should be sorted.

14 days in the FV is, I think, far too long. The primary fermentation should be finished within 4 days or so. This is the point at which I cool the beer to drop most of the yeast out. A day at 12°C, a day at 5°C. The beer will then be fairly clear when it goes into the keg (I also use King kegs), but with enough yeast and fermentables left to condition it without priming sugar.

Harvesting yeast is best done from the top of the FV. Using a sanitised jug I scoop out half a litre of beer and store it in the 'fridge in a glass kilner jar. This gives a thin sediment on the bottom which is enough for a starter a few days before the next brew.

And you would definitely benefit from some method of controlling the temperature of your beer once it's in the keg. More easily said than done!

Guy

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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:59 pm

Cheers Guy. I’ll take that all onboard.

I did trial a shorter ferment with a cold crash to zero degrees, but I didn’t really discern any effect and I was worried about yeast health given the temperature change and the way I repitch. I’ll give a shorter fermentation a go.

I’m meanwhile eyeing one of the fancy off the shelf kegerators with a corny keg setup for the summer.

I suppose what I’m trying to get at in this thread is, what is the best way to go from good to great beer. What is the best way to look at what you’re doing, find areas for improvement, and tweak? Should I look to join a home brew club to get outside feedback? Or just do the same recipe ten times in a row and change one thing each time? Or just keep brewing and as long as it’s enjoyable to drink then job’s a goodun?

guypettigrew
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:23 pm

Depends what you think is stopping your beers from being great instead of just good! What do you taste that's not quite as you'd like it to be?

If your process is right, including water treatment, then it'll be down to the recipes you decide to brew. Without wishing to cause any offense, GW's recipes are good, but not the be all and end all of home brewing. Try experimenting with ingredients.

The beer I'm drinking at the moment is 64% mild ale malt;20% Vienna malt; 6% crystal malt;6% chocolate malt;2% flaked oats and 2% black malt.

Goldings and Fuggles hops all in the start of the boil to 31 EBUs. OG 1.049.

And very lovely it is too! But definitely not a GW recipe.

Guy

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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:47 pm

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there with recipes, although I do wonder if a lot of the US recipes I see are a bit fussy with the ingredient lists using 6 types of malt.
I was pondering for a few hours what I thought was wrong with my current brew, or not quite as I'd like it to be, and couldn't quite pin my finger on it. That's not to say there's "nothing wrong with it", more I don't know if there is anything wrong. To help that make sense:

1) It could just be I'm lacking a sophisticated palate - ok, not quite at the level of thinking Carling is nice, but more that while I'm drinking a beer I'm not thinking to myself "luscious aromas of hops, oranges and pear drops. Full malt in the mouth, intense finish with complex balance of hop bitterness and fruit" as GW's description of Bateman's Victory ale would have it. My thoughts are more "this is good, nothing obviously wrong, I can taste a bit of pear drop maybe".

2) It also could be that everything is a little bit samey. If so, branching out on styles is a good next step - I can consistently do a good bitter, and strong ale. I couldn't claim to producing an authentic lager, a mild that tastes of something other than black malt, or a proper wee heavy. So trying more and learning how to do different styles is probably a good learning experience.

3) Finally, I think what most of us are trying to recreate is that pub experience (like many brewers, I'd love to do a good Harvey's clone that tasted like something served in Borough's Royal Oak). I'm well aware of Peebee's many fine articles on cask ale dispense and the challenge of recreating real ale. That said, I tend to find that without a bit of priming sugar and something above 2 psi I perceive my beers as "flat" (from memory, AG brews 5 - 15 were all under carbonated for my taste). There's also so much else that goes into a pub pint - the company, ambience, food, the whole session - which can't be recreated at home. So, probably what I'm looking for is to create a pint as close to a pub real ale as possible, adjusted for my taste, whilst also recognising that I'm not in a pub.

Perhaps I've just dug a whole for myself there. Perhaps I just need to really focus on the taste of the next pint and try to figure out what I can actually detect and relate that back to the process and ingredients.

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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by Jocky » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:23 pm

The biggest leaps I’ve made in brewing have been to learn from better brewers than me.

First I joined a home brew club and got great feedback.

Then I entered competitions and got blinded trained feedback, I also became a judge myself, but that’s probably not necessary.

Most recently I’ve been learning by talking to brewers that brew outstanding beer and understanding their brewing system, techniques and what makes that beer special. It’s rare that it’s a fluke.

The biggest advances I’ve made in technique has been working to exclude oxygen as much as possible once fermentation subsides, and getting really good fermentation with adequate yeast starters.

Oh and be wary of advice from anyone whose beer quality you cannot vouch for (or know someone who can). Like random people on Internet forums. 😅
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Eric
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by Eric » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:53 am

There is so much to learn and lots of information to examine and determine if any might help your progress in a wonderful hobby. Much of what I have learned might not apply to brewing processes I don't use as there is not only one type of beer or a single way for making it.

For a period I was convinced that chlorine in my water supply would spoil my beer, but it took several months to confirm it didn't. While oxygen can and does cause problems in beer, if the beer has enough yeast and fermentables present, provided it isn't too cold the yeast will soon reduce oxygen levels to an insignificant level. I sometimes wonder what progress, not just in beer, but of human health, had in 1856 M Bigot not provided a sample to Loius Pasteur, instead taking advice from other French brewers.

When you have perfected every aspect of your brewing process, choosing of yeast can make a significant difference to the final beer.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:02 pm

After water treatment, the biggest leaps I've made have been associated with the fermentation side of things. More interesting than making wort too, imo. Making beer! Temperature control, of course. Fresh yeast. It can't be bought, you have to prep it yourself, fresh. Aim to 'over pitch' and avoid under pitching at all costs. There's an awful lot of nonsense online about pitching rates in home brew circles. A lot seems to stem from commercial yeast suppliers balancing profits with what could be realistically delivered to home brewers. Most home brewer probably under pitch, especially if using mysterious online calculators, and seem to accept slow fermentations as 'normal'. Professional brewers pitch at far higher rates. After lots of experimenting I'm absolutely convinced home brewers can't over pitch healthy yeast. (A neglected, unhealthy slurry is another matter.) Oxygenating wort with pure O2 is a worthwhile investment too. It doesn't have to be expensive. I sue the simple Oxyturbo O2 regulator and the small Oxyturbo O2 canisters, which last ages. And getting the finished beer off the yeast as soon as possible produces a nicer beer, imo. I don't think there are any benefits to leaving finished beer sitting on yeast for any length of time. They've gone dormant, occasionally kick up trub (with subtle off flavours) into the beer and at least some might start decaying themselves.

Edit: you'll always get some who disagree based on their personal preferences and relatively low level of what they find acceptable :lol:

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orlando
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:22 pm

Jocky nails it. Join a home brew club. Everyone that has joined the one I'm in in the last year has learned more in that year than I learned in my first 5 years of brewing. You also get to taste a lot of different Beer and can soon compare and receive feedback on your own efforts. As for your list, I would definitely move from no-chill to yes-chill.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Kingfisher4
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by Kingfisher4 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:12 pm

The responses above are much more experienced and learned than my own. Sadly, I have failed to find a homebrew club anywhere near in Derby, would love to learn rapidly as suggested above with others more experienced.

As background, I have only been brewing for three years, also on a Grainfather so, only about 70 batches of all grain beer ever.

However, a couple of additional considerations you might consider:

For the princely sum of an additional £3 per 25 kg bag, I find the Malt Miller option of 5×5 kg bags rather than 1×25 kg is great value. The dusty malt is mixed between all five bags and the heavy duty thick sealed plastic I suspect keeps the crushed grain fresher for longer. Certainly much easier to handle as well.

Try mashing for 60 minutes rather than 90, I didn’t find it affected efficiency and shortens the Brew day.

GW recipes are good, but you might want to source others for more diversity which you seem to be seeking. I have personally found the James Morton book reliable and enjoyable for the recipes. Also used several from suggestions on this site.

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orlando
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Re: Lessons Learned

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:25 pm

Kingfisher4 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:12 pm
Sadly, I have failed to find a homebrew club anywhere near in Derby, would love to learn rapidly as suggested above with others more experienced.
Same when I started, so guess what? :D
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

McMullan

Re: Lessons Learned

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:59 pm

orlando wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:25 pm
Kingfisher4 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:12 pm
Sadly, I have failed to find a homebrew club anywhere near in Derby, would love to learn rapidly as suggested above with others more experienced.
Same when I started, so guess what? :D
You moved to Norfolk? I call that very keen indeed :lol:

McMullan

Re: Lessons Learned

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:07 pm

And presumably this was you eagerly moving your stuff to Norfolk, sir?

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