Phosphoric acid - supply

[LeeH]

Thanks, pity it's not FG.

I've just been pointed to this brewing supplier in Northern Ireland, never used them before but it looks like they ship to all the UK.
https://www.geterbrewed.com/phosphoric-acid-75-230-ml/

Great just got some. If it’s going to be impossible to get hold of I’m stocking up.

[LeeH]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403978081526 ... media=COPY

Says ‘medical’ but not food.

Yeah. I saw that one. And at 75% what makes up the other 25%.

Isn't lactic acid, like citric in that it leaves a particular flavour?

I use and can recommend AMS from maltmiller (it is from Murphy's)... unless there a reason for phosphoric acid?

Interesting test on Brulosophy.

https://brulosophy.com/2019/02/28/water ... mt-series/

[JonA]

Great just got some. If it’s going to be impossible to get hold of I’m stocking up.

I've just ordered a bottle, their site says they use DPD as courier to mainland UK.

It's definitely a bit scarce at the moment. Daily Star front page tomorrow .... 'The Great Phosphoric Acid Shortage'

[LeeH]

The stores guy will be wondering what the sudden rush on acid is all about.

[Eric]

I am not 'up' on water chemistry. Eric sorted me out.
The buttery taste, wasn't the AMS, it was the brewing salts (DWB) addition. I was using too much. That too is now bang on.

I adjust my liquor (for hoppy IPA) to 80ppm alk, as per Murphy's guides.

80ppm?

Quoting Murphy and Son on Alkalinity.

It should be noted that bicarbonate ions are rather more effective at raising wort pH than calcium ions are at reducing it.
The conversion of bicarbonate to carbonic acid is reversible until heat is applied, which drives off the carbon dioxide. This effectively removes the acidic hydrogen ion from the system by using it to form a stable water molecule. The wort pH therefore remains high and all the advantages derived from the presence of adequate calcium levels and reduced pH are lost.

We therefore see the following:
Harsh after-tastes in the finished beer
Extract will be reduced due to lower ß-amylase activity
Reduced protein precipitation due to high pH
Worts and beer more prone to infection
Increased extract of undesirable materials in the sparge, notably silicates, polyphenols and tannins
Hop utilisation will also be increased, giving more bitter beers.

The net result of this is then to decrease beer stability and shelf life and to increase the likelihood of troublesome hazes. Colour will be darker, and flavour will be detrimentally affected. It is then also essential to ensure removal of excess bicarbonate. As shown in the table at the top of this article, hard water may contain 250 mgs/l of bicarbonate. However, the maximum level that can be tolerated without adverse effect for the production of pale ales is 50 mgs/l and the preferred level would be about 25 mgs/l. It should also be noted that whilst additions of calcium may be made to HLT, grist and copper, the removal of bicarbonate must be achieved in the Hot Liquor Tank.

[Pete46]

BrewUK have it listed on their website.

[drjim]

I am not 'up' on water chemistry. Eric sorted me out.
The buttery taste, wasn't the AMS, it was the brewing salts (DWB) addition. I was using too much. That too is now bang on.

I adjust my liquor (for hoppy IPA) to 80ppm alk, as per Murphy's guides.

80ppm?

Quoting Murphy and Son on Alkalinity.

It should be noted that bicarbonate ions are rather more effective at raising wort pH than calcium ions are at reducing it.
The conversion of bicarbonate to carbonic acid is reversible until heat is applied, which drives off the carbon dioxide. This effectively removes the acidic hydrogen ion from the system by using it to form a stable water molecule. The wort pH therefore remains high and all the advantages derived from the presence of adequate calcium levels and reduced pH are lost.

We therefore see the following:
Harsh after-tastes in the finished beer
Extract will be reduced due to lower ß-amylase activity
Reduced protein precipitation due to high pH
Worts and beer more prone to infection
Increased extract of undesirable materials in the sparge, notably silicates, polyphenols and tannins
Hop utilisation will also be increased, giving more bitter beers.

The net result of this is then to decrease beer stability and shelf life and to increase the likelihood of troublesome hazes. Colour will be darker, and flavour will be detrimentally affected. It is then also essential to ensure removal of excess bicarbonate. As shown in the table at the top of this article, hard water may contain 250 mgs/l of bicarbonate. However, the maximum level that can be tolerated without adverse effect for the production of pale ales is 50 mgs/l and the preferred level would be about 25 mgs/l. It should also be noted that whilst additions of calcium may be made to HLT, grist and copper, the removal of bicarbonate must be achieved in the Hot Liquor Tank.

Reading all that makes me very happy to have United Utilities/Lake District soft water which seems to need no treatment at all!

[Eric]

Reading all that makes me very happy to have United Utilities/Lake District soft water which seems to need no treatment at all!

No calcium necessary? Another extract from the same article

Of the ions required for brewing, calcium is by far the most important. This is because of the acidifying effect that calcium has on the wort.

acidify.jpg (4.56 KiB) Viewed 2574 times

Wort contains large amounts of phosphates derived from the malt, and these have a buffering effect – that is they tend to mop up hydrogen ions and keep the pH higher than desired. Calcium ions precipitate phosphates as insoluble calcium phosphate and release hydrogen ions into the wort. It is worth mentioning at this point that whilst the pH of the wort is critical, that of the water in the Hot Liquor Tank (HLT) is not. The pH of water may vary from about pH 5 to pH 8 dependent upon the levels of dissolved carbon dioxide – even de-ionised water can have pH levels as low as 5 after exposure to the air. However, the carbon dioxide is driven off by heat in the HLT and the pH of the water will rise.

A combination of the presence of calcium ions and the decrease in pH has a number of effects on the brewing process: the lower pH improves enzyme activity and thus wort fermentability and extract.

The optimum pH for ß-amylase activity is about 4·7. Wort produced from liquor containing no calcium has a pH in the order of 5·8 – 6·0, compared to values in the range of 5·3 – 5·5 for worts produced from treated brewing liquor. The activity of the ß-amylase then is greatly enhanced by the addition of calcium, this exo enzyme increasing the production of maltose from Amylose, and thus making worts more fermentable.

Calcium has an almost ‘chicken and egg’ effect in the precipitation of wort proteins, both during mashing and during the boil.

Protein-H + Ca2+ --> Protein-Ca + 2H+

The hydrogen ions released further reduce the pH which encourages further precipitation of proteins. Proteins are also degraded, that is converted to simpler substances by proteolytic enzymes called proteases. These are found in the malt, and have optimum activity at pH values of about 4·5 – 5·0. The reduction in pH then caused by the presence of calcium encourages proteolysis, further reducing protein levels and increasing wort Free Amino Nitrogen levels (FAN). FAN compounds are utilised by the yeast during fermentation for the manufacture of Amino acids, and an increase in FAN levels in the wort improves the health and vigour of the yeast. High protein levels in beers also have negative effects, making beer more difficult to fine and encouraging formation of hazes, in particular chill hazes. Product shelf life can also be adversely affected.

Calcium ions protect the enzyme a-amylase from inhibition by heat. a-amylase is an endo enzyme, cleaving the internal 1,4 glucosidic links of amylopectin resulting in a rapid reduction in wort viscosity. The optimum temperature range for a-amylase is 65 – 68°C., however the enzyme is rapidly destroyed at these temperatures. Calcium stabilises a-amylase to 70 – 75°C.

It can be seen then that the presence of calcium has positive effects on the activity of both a-amylase and ß-amylase, two of the most important enzymes in the brewing process.

The drop in pH encouraged by Calcium ions in the mash and copper helps afford the wort and subsequent beer produced a greater resistance to microbiological infection.
The reduced pH of the sparge liquor reduces extraction of undesirable silicates, tannins and polyphenols from the mash bed.
The extraction of such materials is encouraged by alkaline sparge liquor. These materials are very undesirable, contributing to harsh flavours, hazes in the finished beer and decreased beer stability.

Calcium precipitates oxalates as insoluble calcium oxalate. This again occurs in both the mash tun and the copper. Oxalates cause hazes in finished beers and also contribute to the formation of beerstone in FV’s, CT’s and casks. Oxalates are also thought to promote gushing in certain beers, although this is not generally a problem to the micro brewer.

The presence of calcium reduces colour formation in the copper. This is due to the reduction of extraction of colour forming compounds such as anthocyanogens and pro-anthocyanidins during the sparge.

The reaction: Reducing Sugar + Heat Melanoidins is also inhibited.

Calcium ions improve beer fining performance. Calcium ions encourage yeast flocculation – being a divalent Cation it has a natural affinity for negatively charged yeast cells.

With all the above advantages of the presence of calcium and reduction in pH there is one minor disadvantage: the reduction in pH causes a decrease in hop utilisation, giving less bitter beers. This increases hopping costs, since more hops will be required to achieve a desired level of bitterness. However the optimum pH for hop isomerisation as used in the commercial production of isomerised hop extracts is about pH 10, so a reduction from pH 5·8 in a mash with untreated liquor to pH 5·1 out of copper for a treated brew is not too critical.

You will see that much of the calcium added to the mash is lost – precipitated out as phosphate, proteinate or oxalate. Since calcium is specifically required in the copper for further precipitation of these materials it is common to add calcium to the grist or Hot Liquor Tank and to then make a second addition to the copper. Where this is not practical it is quite acceptable to make a larger addition to the grist or to the H.L.T.

[MashBag]

Reading all that makes me very happy to have United Utilities/Lake District soft water which seems to need no treatment at all!

I am moving, it will be easier

[LeeH]

Reading all that makes me very happy to have United Utilities/Lake District soft water which seems to need no treatment at all!

I am moving, it will be easier

1 water that brews all styles?

Hmmmm

[drjim]

Not had any problems except when I tried adding some gypsum and it just made the beer cloudy!

[guypettigrew]

Impossible!

Guy

[drjim]

Everything is possible.

[drjim]

I've brewed lager, bitter, IPA, stout (normal export and imperial) Belgian, Putin Huilo, Aussi pale ale, Vienna lager, plus turbo cider and some wine. All works except as I say when I added gypsum and the beer was cloudy - I'll ignore the harvested yeast experiment where it went very fruit flavoured and down the drain!

Brewfather is showing batch 65 I did probably 20 batches before using Brewfather. So fairly consistent over last couple of years.

My water according to UU

Analysis Typical value UK/EU limit Units
Hardness Level Soft
Hardness Clarke 2.03 Clarke
Aluminium 12.9 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 9.52 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 0.97 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.90 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <1.81 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 79.1 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper <0.0155 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron <7.56 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.823 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 1.21 mg Mg/l
Manganese 1.42 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate <1.77 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 6.51 200 mg Na/l

[Eric]

No figure for alkalinity, sulphate or chloride. but it doesn't really mater, there's near bugger all in that water that helps a brewer make beer.
If that is how you wish to brew, there is no more to be said.