decoction mash?
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slurp the apprentice
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decoction mash?
I would like to brew oatmeal stout and follow the samual smiths recipe that i enjohed so much when i visited Vossy.The only problem is the inital mash temp of 40c for 30mins and then 65.5c for 90mins as i use a customised cool box mash tun.How can i get round this dilemma could i simply add more hotter mash water to bring the initial 40c up to 65.5 or drain the mash tun after 30mins add this to the boiler and reheat to 65.5c? any ideas?
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prolix
did you mean decoction or step mashing?
I cannot see a way to do it without pumping, if you drain and reheat the wort back up to strike temp you will destroy the enzymes.
Though if you have a dryer mix for the first rest you may be able to add boiling water to bring the temp up to 65, though you will need to add just over half the amount again. But again adding boiling water will destroy the enzymes it touches and leach tannins like a good un.
maybe do the first one but in stages heat the wort up to 68 put it back in mix drain reheat the wort back to 68 repeat until it holds temp at 65 may take a while though.
I would just do an single infusion mash and envy Vossy shineys
I cannot see a way to do it without pumping, if you drain and reheat the wort back up to strike temp you will destroy the enzymes.
Though if you have a dryer mix for the first rest you may be able to add boiling water to bring the temp up to 65, though you will need to add just over half the amount again. But again adding boiling water will destroy the enzymes it touches and leach tannins like a good un.
maybe do the first one but in stages heat the wort up to 68 put it back in mix drain reheat the wort back to 68 repeat until it holds temp at 65 may take a while though.
I would just do an single infusion mash and envy Vossy shineys
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BigEd
Although I admit I am not familiar with that particular recipe the initial mash temp of 40 C seems too low. That's acid rest territory for old style German and Czech pilsners. Is that 40C temp correct and if so what is the reasoning behind it? Jumping from 40 C to 65.5 C is going to require a lot of hot water for an infusion. Draining the liquid and applying heat is not something I would recommend for this step of the mash as most of the conversion enzymes are in solution and you will run a big risk of denaturing them. That is not a decoction, BTW. A decoction involves removing and heating to boiling mostly the solids of the mash thereby leaving most of the enzyme-rich liquid behind in the tun. Also the typical temperature rise of a decoction (using 1/3 of the mash by weight) is only 10-12 C which is not going to cover the gap between 40 and 65.5 C. If 40 C is indeed the correct first rest temp I might consider mashing in with some very hot water to keep the mash as dry as possible. From there you might be able to get away with another very hot, boiling even, water infusion.
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eddetchon
40C - makes sense to me - probably to break down a few glucans in the oats and improve head retention while still getting some of the smooth benefits. 104F is a little higher than acid rest so that's not it.
anyway i don't see any great problem if you want to do a step mash. I use a 25L cooler (or chilly bin as we call them in NZ) as a mash/lauter tun. by way of example, i recently did a dry stout which looked a bit like this:
4kg of grain and flaked barley.
42C rest for 20 minutes, which i achieved by adding 5.8L of 48.7C water to it. then raised to 66C by adding 5.4L of boiling water. i even did a mashout step which lots of people don't, by adding a further 6 or so litres of boiling water.
check out howtobrew.com for the calculations you need to make. i wrote myself a spreadsheet with calculations. it might take you an hour or so but once you've done it you can step mash all you like, which i find useful even for single infusions, because as i say, i always do a mashout step at about 76C.
my one caution would be that when i do this sort of low rest i use at least some lager malt which presumably has more of the glucanase enzymes than pale ale malt. you can get away with using lager malt in a stout, i find, because the roasted grains will cover up any DMS flavour. if i had an all pale ale malt grist i'm not sure i'd bother.
anyway i don't see any great problem if you want to do a step mash. I use a 25L cooler (or chilly bin as we call them in NZ) as a mash/lauter tun. by way of example, i recently did a dry stout which looked a bit like this:
4kg of grain and flaked barley.
42C rest for 20 minutes, which i achieved by adding 5.8L of 48.7C water to it. then raised to 66C by adding 5.4L of boiling water. i even did a mashout step which lots of people don't, by adding a further 6 or so litres of boiling water.
check out howtobrew.com for the calculations you need to make. i wrote myself a spreadsheet with calculations. it might take you an hour or so but once you've done it you can step mash all you like, which i find useful even for single infusions, because as i say, i always do a mashout step at about 76C.
my one caution would be that when i do this sort of low rest i use at least some lager malt which presumably has more of the glucanase enzymes than pale ale malt. you can get away with using lager malt in a stout, i find, because the roasted grains will cover up any DMS flavour. if i had an all pale ale malt grist i'm not sure i'd bother.
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Dan
I dont know if this is possible for your self. but on the occasion i wanted to do two temperature steps i mashed in at 50C in my picnic box. after the rest i poured the mash (grain and all) into a big stockpot on a gas burner, and warmed it up on a low heat untill it came up to saccrifision temp. When the temp was just 1/2 a degree higher than i wanted I dumped straight back to the picnic mash/lauter box.
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steve_flack
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oblivious
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oblivious
I do as Steve_flack on my wheat beers, but I dont have a RIMS.
I usually do a ratio of about 2 litres to 1kilo grain for Ales
But on my wheat beer go for about 1litre to 1kilo of grain for a 50oC ish
Then add another 1litre per kilo to bring up to 65oC ish
I work out both water temps in beersmith
Just make sure you have enough room in your mashtun!
The last few times I have done I have got very close to the top
As I think I ended up upping both ratios to hit my temps
I usually do a ratio of about 2 litres to 1kilo grain for Ales
But on my wheat beer go for about 1litre to 1kilo of grain for a 50oC ish
Then add another 1litre per kilo to bring up to 65oC ish
I work out both water temps in beersmith
Just make sure you have enough room in your mashtun!
The last few times I have done I have got very close to the top
As I think I ended up upping both ratios to hit my temps
Fermenter(s): Lambic, Wheat beer, Amrillo/Cascade Beer
Cornys: Hobgoblin clone, Four Shades Stout, Wheat Beer, Amarillo/Cascade Ale, Apple Wine, Cider, Damson Wine, Ginger Beer
Cornys: Hobgoblin clone, Four Shades Stout, Wheat Beer, Amarillo/Cascade Ale, Apple Wine, Cider, Damson Wine, Ginger Beer
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Madbrewer
I have done similar before but with less and heated hotter! Though I think you need to be prepared to sacrifice your efficiency a bit if you go too hot.Dan wrote:... after the rest i poured the mash (grain and all) into a big stockpot on a gas burner, and warmed it up on a low heat untill it came up to saccrifision temp. When the temp was just 1/2 a degree higher than i wanted I dumped straight back to the picnic mash/lauter box.
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J_P
A good tip I picked up from David Edge was to mash the oats separately @ 40C for 30 minutes with around half as much malt and then add it to the mash water with the rest of the grain. This was called a Beta Glucan rest and apparently it served to break down the Beta Glucans (Cellulose I think) to prevent a stuck mash.
The beer turned out fantastic and had a wonderful big mouthfeel it was really tasty, I'm a little upset because there are only 3 bottles of it left in the beer cave!
Edit I forgot to say I mashed the oats in the jam pan in 2l of water.
The beer turned out fantastic and had a wonderful big mouthfeel it was really tasty, I'm a little upset because there are only 3 bottles of it left in the beer cave!
Edit I forgot to say I mashed the oats in the jam pan in 2l of water.
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Aleman
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As JP Says, the 40C ish rest is the Glucan rest - Actually its a bit hot for the glucan rest more in the acid rest territory, but these things overlap to a considerable degree anyway.
Beta Glucan is a pretty gummy substance that can cause stuck mashes Wheat Oats and Rye all have fairly high levels of Beta Glucan so a rest for this to allow it to be broken down is advantageous when using high levels of these adjuncts. My Black Wheat/Rye Beer used 20% Wheat and 20% rye. For this beer I did as has been suggested, and mashed the rye and wheat with some pilsner malt for 20 minutes at 30C, this was then added to the main mash (at 68C) for another hour.
One benefit of a glucan rest is that it does provide additional material to aid in head retention, so its another technique to increase head retention.
Beta Glucan is a pretty gummy substance that can cause stuck mashes Wheat Oats and Rye all have fairly high levels of Beta Glucan so a rest for this to allow it to be broken down is advantageous when using high levels of these adjuncts. My Black Wheat/Rye Beer used 20% Wheat and 20% rye. For this beer I did as has been suggested, and mashed the rye and wheat with some pilsner malt for 20 minutes at 30C, this was then added to the main mash (at 68C) for another hour.
One benefit of a glucan rest is that it does provide additional material to aid in head retention, so its another technique to increase head retention.
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slurp the apprentice
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