Calling All Lager Experts
-
RabMaxwell
Calling All Lager Experts
Hello all i am thinking about starting to integrate a few lagers into this years brewing calendar for the summer months incase we get a summer this year. In my quite long brewing history i haven't really bothered brewing lagers although i really should as i have very soft water. I prefer pilsen type lagers but with my water minerals every thing is low except my Chloride level of 43 compared to pilsen waters CL level of 5. Also when i am maturing my lagers i will probably only be able to get it down to about 3-4oc.With my brewing volumes i can only practically use dry yeast to get a high enough pitching rate for 110 litres which saflager strain would i be best buying. So basically i am looking for a couple of good tried & tested recipes a few tips on fermentation temperatures lager clarification & ageing techniques as this is new to me cheers also Happy New Year
-
Aleman
- It's definitely Lock In Time
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 am
- Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
Just a quick couple of comments.
Chloride levels, don't worry about your elevated level compared to Plzen it will help to boost your malt profile which for Bohemian type pilsners is a good thing. In fact I would be tempted to boost your Calcium Level to 150ppm using Calcium Chloride(Which also boosts chloride) to really assist in getting a full malty profile.
Traditional hops are Saaz . . .And . . . Saaz, and you need lots of them. I would recommend buying some NZ Saaz B from Ross in Aus, as that is one way to cut down on hop qtys (Esp with Saaz Alphas falling to 2%!!), and use traditional saaz for aroma which you need plenty of.
S23 is a good lager yeast, especially in 500g packets, you will be looking to pitch 100-120g per hectalitre especially if you pitch cold and if you can get the W34/70 that would be another good one to try.
Fermentation temperatures - IIRC 10-12C for S23, Ferment 1 day for each degree Plato (~4 Gravity points), then when the gravity has fallen to around 1/4 ramp the temp up to 15-16C for a couple of days to reduce the diacetyl. Then drop the temperature as cold as you can get it, for a few days-> a couple of weeks, before racking off into a secondary. Then you are looking at Lagering for 1 week for each degree Plato at temps around 0C. While I know you have said its not possible. I find that dropping the temp to -2C for a couple of weeks really speeds up the lagering process
I'll post a couple of recipes when I get my other PC fired up.
Chloride levels, don't worry about your elevated level compared to Plzen it will help to boost your malt profile which for Bohemian type pilsners is a good thing. In fact I would be tempted to boost your Calcium Level to 150ppm using Calcium Chloride(Which also boosts chloride) to really assist in getting a full malty profile.
Traditional hops are Saaz . . .And . . . Saaz, and you need lots of them. I would recommend buying some NZ Saaz B from Ross in Aus, as that is one way to cut down on hop qtys (Esp with Saaz Alphas falling to 2%!!), and use traditional saaz for aroma which you need plenty of.
S23 is a good lager yeast, especially in 500g packets, you will be looking to pitch 100-120g per hectalitre especially if you pitch cold and if you can get the W34/70 that would be another good one to try.
Fermentation temperatures - IIRC 10-12C for S23, Ferment 1 day for each degree Plato (~4 Gravity points), then when the gravity has fallen to around 1/4 ramp the temp up to 15-16C for a couple of days to reduce the diacetyl. Then drop the temperature as cold as you can get it, for a few days-> a couple of weeks, before racking off into a secondary. Then you are looking at Lagering for 1 week for each degree Plato at temps around 0C. While I know you have said its not possible. I find that dropping the temp to -2C for a couple of weeks really speeds up the lagering process
I'll post a couple of recipes when I get my other PC fired up.
-
steve_flack
Lagers are brewed with all sorts of water profiles - for example Dortmunders are brewed with very hard water. Admittedly the classic Czech Bohemian pilsner does benefit from soft water.
I'd second Aleman's suggestion of using NZ B Saaz hops. I've got some from Ross and they're great. Failing that Sterling is a great sub and has fairly high alpha. Given the volumes you brew maybe you could consider a clean bittering hop like Horizon or Magnum for your bittering additions and save the expensive hops for later?
I'd second Aleman's suggestion of using NZ B Saaz hops. I've got some from Ross and they're great. Failing that Sterling is a great sub and has fairly high alpha. Given the volumes you brew maybe you could consider a clean bittering hop like Horizon or Magnum for your bittering additions and save the expensive hops for later?
-
steve_flack
You can get 500g packs of all the Fermentis yeasts (S-23, W34/70 and S-189) in the UK from Farams and Murphys (IIRC). I seem to recall the lagers are about £30-£40 for a 500g pack. For my purposes I use 1g/L of dried yeastAleman wrote:Just had a quick check of the fermentis web site, and would recommend W34/70 over S23.
-
RabMaxwell
Cheers for the good info just tested my fridge freezer at its lowest setting & the top fridge part i want to use for lager is going to -2oc at its lowest setting not sure how low it will get in the summer months though. I might be able to adjust with an external thermostat i also have spare taps that i can fit to the fridge door.
-
Whorst
I stopped making them years ago. Mainly because they take too (*&%^% long. Use 100% lager and ferment with safale 05 cool. I usually ferment this style at 58F. or 14.44 C. The heat generated from fermentation will give you about 62-64F(16.6 C.) inside the fermenter. It works, and I wonder how many people would be able to tell it was fermented with an ale yeast?
-
Whorst
-
RabMaxwell
That's good news i might give this a try first i always have some US 05 yeast as i buy from Farms in brick amounts. It has also become my favourite dry yeast i have just done a couple of Bitters using safale 04 that i previously had done with US 05. The US 05 ones win hands down for my tastes think i will reserve the 400g of safale 04 i have left for stouts & dark beers. Any chance of a couple of well tested recipes to try also is using a hopback appropriate for lagers. I am not really looking at brewing award winning lagers as i am not really a lager drinker but enjoy a pint or two on a warm summers day. If US 05 does something fairly good it will be good enough for me. Cheers
-
Whorst
I brew using the batch sparge method, which is basically mashing as normal, drain the lauter ton, then add the liquor on top of the drained grain bed. I recirculate the wort through the grain bed twice for roughly 10-15 minutes. I have my system pegged. It takes me 10lbs of malt to get between a 1.050-1.054 gravity. This is due to the inefficiency of the batch sparge method. I prefer this method over fly sparging for its ease of use, even though I need to add extra malt. So, if I were to recommend a recipe for a lager, I'd just mash 10lbs of lager malt, pilsner malt, or Golden Promise nothing else. Definitely use 5.2 in your mash tun to stabilize mash pH to 5.2. This stuff works, and with a beer this pale, it's very important to get the mash pH right. Once it's all in the kettle, use whatever variety of hop you like to use. For lager, I'd use Tettnanger, Saaz, Hallertauer, etc. Ferment with 05 cool around 58F.(14.4C.) ambient temperature. Fermentation will generate some heat inside the fermenter and the actual fermentation should take place in the low 60'sF(16+C.) I have made several of these lager hybrids. I also like to use lager malt in conjunction with Maris otter, 50/50. Hop as you like and ferment with 05.
I really enjoy these light(colour) hoppy ales. I have read where some people think that 05 is this American West Coast yeast that only makes hoppy beers. It will make almost anything if you know how to use it. I've used it with Maris Otter, all English hops for what I consider fabulous beers. Here's some audio by Chris White from White Labs as he talks about WLP001, which is the same as Safale 05.
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp001.html (click audio link)
Post a follow up on how you get on.
Cheers, Whorst
I really enjoy these light(colour) hoppy ales. I have read where some people think that 05 is this American West Coast yeast that only makes hoppy beers. It will make almost anything if you know how to use it. I've used it with Maris Otter, all English hops for what I consider fabulous beers. Here's some audio by Chris White from White Labs as he talks about WLP001, which is the same as Safale 05.
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp001.html (click audio link)
Post a follow up on how you get on.
Cheers, Whorst
-
Whorst
I brew using the batch sparge method, which is basically mashing as normal, drain the lauter ton, then add the liquor on top of the drained grain bed. I recirculate the wort through the grain bed twice for roughly 10-15 minutes. I have my system pegged. It takes me 10lbs of malt to get between a 1.050-1.054 gravity. This is due to the inefficiency of the batch sparge method. I prefer this method over fly sparging for its ease of use, even though I need to add extra malt. So, if I were to recommend a recipe for a lager, I'd just mash 10lbs of lager malt, pilsner malt, or Golden Promise nothing else. Definitely use 5.2 in your mash tun to stabilize mash pH to 5.2. This stuff works, and with a beer this pale, it's very important to get the mash pH right. Once it's all in the kettle, use whatever variety of hop you like to use. For lager, I'd use Tettnanger, Saaz, Hallertauer, etc. Ferment with 05 cool around 58F.(14.4C.) ambient temperature. Fermentation will generate some heat inside the fermenter and the actual fermentation should take place in the low 60'sF(16+C.) I have made several of these lager hybrids. I also like to use lager malt in conjunction with Maris otter, 50/50. Hop as you like and ferment with 05.
I really enjoy these light(colour) hoppy ales. I have read where some people think that 05 is this American West Coast yeast that only makes hoppy beers. It will make almost anything if you know how to use it. I've used it with Maris Otter, all English hops for what I consider fabulous beers. Here's some audio by Chris White from White Labs as he talks about WLP001, which is the same as Safale 05.
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp001.html (click audio link)
Post a follow up on how you get on.
Cheers, Whorst
I really enjoy these light(colour) hoppy ales. I have read where some people think that 05 is this American West Coast yeast that only makes hoppy beers. It will make almost anything if you know how to use it. I've used it with Maris Otter, all English hops for what I consider fabulous beers. Here's some audio by Chris White from White Labs as he talks about WLP001, which is the same as Safale 05.
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp001.html (click audio link)
Post a follow up on how you get on.
Cheers, Whorst
-
RabMaxwell
I am by no means a lager expert just looking to integrate a few brews for the summer months incase we get a few hot days. Something refreshing & thirst quenching on a hot day something Pilsen like. But don't really want to start doing temperature stepped mashes tying up cornies for longer lager maturation times. And making large alterations to my set-up for probably what's only going to be one or two brews a year. So i am thinking of giving the suggestions from Whorst a go first if i can get something nice & refreshing i will be happy. If not i will be pestering you lager brewers some more 
-
bconnery
US05 pseduo lagers
A small club I am in concentractes on a style at each meeting and we recently did german style pilsners.
A number of brewers had done pseudo lagers with US56 fermented very low and to all of us the difference was noticeable.
This is not to say they were not good beers but when side by side with a beer made with a lager yeast the ale like characteristics came through. They lacked that little extra bit of crispness and maltiness somehow, even though the grain bills were often similar.
s189 is a brilliant dry lager yeast in my book.
I will also propose an alternative for those who lack the patience to lager.
I have used this method twice now and both beers have been excellent.
It works best for keggers but bottles can do it...
ferment low as per usual 9-12C for 2-3 weeks. Diacetyl rest for 2 days at end if desired.
Chill back down for 2 days to drop yeast.
Rack to keg and filter or else use gelatine, which is what I do.
If bottling rack to secondary with gelatine, chill again for 2 days then bottle.
If kegging chill for 1 week before drinking, 2 is best.
Essentially you lager in the keg, but just at normal temperatures. It is more like cold conditioning. My latest german pilsener was fermented for 2 then drunk after 2 weeks in the keg.
I tried it at one week and it was already starting to taste very nice.
The entire keg was gone 5 and half weeks after the day it was brewed...
A number of brewers had done pseudo lagers with US56 fermented very low and to all of us the difference was noticeable.
This is not to say they were not good beers but when side by side with a beer made with a lager yeast the ale like characteristics came through. They lacked that little extra bit of crispness and maltiness somehow, even though the grain bills were often similar.
s189 is a brilliant dry lager yeast in my book.
I will also propose an alternative for those who lack the patience to lager.
I have used this method twice now and both beers have been excellent.
It works best for keggers but bottles can do it...
ferment low as per usual 9-12C for 2-3 weeks. Diacetyl rest for 2 days at end if desired.
Chill back down for 2 days to drop yeast.
Rack to keg and filter or else use gelatine, which is what I do.
If bottling rack to secondary with gelatine, chill again for 2 days then bottle.
If kegging chill for 1 week before drinking, 2 is best.
Essentially you lager in the keg, but just at normal temperatures. It is more like cold conditioning. My latest german pilsener was fermented for 2 then drunk after 2 weeks in the keg.
I tried it at one week and it was already starting to taste very nice.
The entire keg was gone 5 and half weeks after the day it was brewed...
-
RabMaxwell
Cheers bconnery Could i fine the lager at 5oc in my secondary fermenter with gelatine before transferring to cornies to prevent transferring a large amount of yeast into the cornie will this work with lager? My fridge that i will be storing the lager in has been freezing water at it's lowest setting along with the cold weather here in scotland at the moment. So i think i will probably be able to get it to freezing at the highest setting in the summer