AG#60 - Belgian Honey Beer (Duvel Yeast)

[jmc]

Hi Floyd

Sounds like a great beer.

I too have been looking forward to a first Belgian Brew after reading Brew Like a Monk.

Your recipe sounds like a great beer to start with, though I've only got Maris Otter at the moment so I'll probably go with that.

Never heard of 'Grains of Paradise'.
I did a quick Google, and sounds like its gingery and peppery.
I wondered if you knew of a substitute?

Do you have to lager this brew?

For this brew is kegging OK or is bottling the only option?

TIA John

[floydmeddler]

Hey John,

Give this a go if you want but beware, it is experimental so may not turn out as good as I'm hoping. You can get Grains of Paradise on Ebay. Maris Otter should be fine. Will turn out maltier than mine though. Will you use Duvel yeast? Very easy to culture from a bottle. Also, have you got temp control? I raised this 1c a day.

Primary for a month, secondary with honey for another month I reckon. I have no fridge so can't lager sadly.

[jmc]

Hello Floyd

I'll try and culture some Duvel yeast. Its a great excuse for emptying a couple of bottles .

I may try yeast out on another lower OG Belgian style beer first then use slurry from primary for the Duvel.
(Thanks Spud395 for idea)

Luckily I have a fermentation fridge now (courtesy of JabbA), with temp control, so I should be able to do the temperature increase during primary fermentation.

I know its a high OG but 1 month is a long time in primary .
I've had a lower OG Wheat beer get mould on the top due to leaving too long in primary so I'm wary of leaving it too long.
Does your primary have an airlock?

No mods to my fridge thermostat so not sure if I could lager myself.

There are some very odd links to the Grains of Paradise.

I notice that there are a few mentions of this spice in articles about Duvel, so I can understand why you are using it, but do you think it's essential?

TIA John

[floydmeddler]

I may try yeast out on another lower OG Belgian style beer first then use slurry from primary for the Duvel.
(Thanks Spud395 for idea)

Bear in mind I under pitched (1L starter) deliberately in the hope that interesting flavours would arise. Too early to tell of success/unsuccess though.

I know its a high OG but 1 month is a long time in primary .

You're right and it probably isn't needed. I do it to ensure the yeast has finished ALL its work though. It took around 3 weeks for the krausen to disappear from the surface. Bear in mind that I under pitched also, so it took a little longer for things to really kick off.

I've had a lower OG Wheat beer get mould on the top due to leaving too long in primary so I'm wary of leaving it too long.
Does your primary have an airlock?

No due to the heat control I have set up. I use a small necked Young's fermenter and put a towel over the opening. The lid then sits on that. Nasties can't really get in there.

There are some very odd links to the Grains of Paradise.

These look about right. I'd be happy to buy them.

I notice that there are a few mentions of this spice in articles about Duvel, so I can understand why you are using it, but do you think it's essential?

Duvel don't use them. However, they are used in Delerium Tremins which is why I wanted to use them. They give a nice peppery note, almost a gentle sting which works really well with the alcohol notes.

[floydmeddler]

Added the honey to this beast tonight. Here are some pics because everyone likes a pretty picture!



I added 400ml of the beer to a pan and poured the honey on top. Used 450g of Rowse honey. I then very gently brought this up to 80c, stirring as I did so. When it hit 80c, I turned off the heat and covered with a towel. I let it pasteurise for 15 mins. This then went into a new sanitised fermenter and the beer was syphoned on top. Gravity went from 1009 to 1015. Will leave this for another few weeks then transfer to a secondary fermenter with gelatine. Will bottle a week after that.

Had a taste and it's tasting damn good. Obviously it's sweet but when this ferments out I reckon it will leave a delicious honey trail

Watch this space!

[jmc]

Looking good Floyd

I think I'll skip the Grains of Paradise from the ebay link I mentioned.

I got a surreal reply from 'welsh.goddess' to question about whether they were OK for culinary use.

Dear johnmccoy1,

Hi John,

Thanks for getting in touch.

I'm sorry, but they are not prepared to food standards, and are therefore for ritual use only.

Sorry if it disappoints

Sian


- welsh.goddess

Keep us posted on how your brew pans out.
ATB John

[floydmeddler]

Ritual use? Jeeze. I got mine from 1313herb. Maybe msg him/her and require as to whether or not they have any?

This will take a while to ferment out I reckon as there is very little yeast in suspension. Don't mind waiting though.

[floydmeddler]

This took a few days to start back up. Gravity is now 1012 and the honey hit is massive. Very sweet too. I'm hoping that this will mellow over time. I'm thinking this is going to take a lot of conditioning...

[Barley Water]

Interesting project, I hope it turns out well for you. Chris, I have alot of experience with WLP500. That strain is very fruity and it will throw off quite a bit of bananna if you are not careful. What seems to work for me is to start the fermentation around 65F and start ramping it up to as high as 80F at the end. You also want to pitch a big starter since as with most Belgian beers, you want to make sure you get very good attenuation. My experience is mostly with beer in the 1.060 to 1.070 range, of course as you get higher, you will start throwing off more fermentation by products. Most of the Belgian yeasts are exteremely temperature sensetive so it really helps to be able to control what is going on. You want all the goodies but you really want to avoid the hot alcholol, medicinal flavors which by the way will give you one hell of a headache. Since you tend to get all the esters and phenols during the yeast growth phase, I try to keep it relatively cool to subdue those then I let the temperature rise to get decent attenuation once the yeast is done multiplying, it seems to work.

I am going to try a Triple in the near future and to burn all that sugar, you need a hell of a lot of yeast. My plan is to make an Abby Single and use the yeast cake to ferment the Triple. I think Floyd's idea to add the honey late is good, this should also help the yeast get through everything. I will be interested to hear about your experience with the Duvel yeast, specifically what flavors did you end up getting. That stuff should be able to take a beating and if handled correctly, it should also do a good job with attenuation. Actually, that strain would make a nice Triple I would think and if the beer gets too dry I could just call it a strong pale, what a deal.

[floydmeddler]

Hey BW. I've used it before and the beer finished at 1010; nowhere near 1002 like Duvel! Do you think that because I underpitched and ramped the temp up within a few days I'm going to get hot alcohols? Hope not!

[Barley Water]

Not necessarily. I look at phenol and ester production as being affected by several variables. Of course size of the pitch matters alot because all the afore mentioned compounds will be spit out by the yeast during the lag phase as the yeast multiplies before the actual production of alcholol and CO2 begins. Of course, if you underpitch, the yeast is going to grow more since there are relatively more goodies for each cell to eat and just like other animals, they multiply to use up the available resources. The reason you wait to let the temperature rise is because by that time, the yeast is done multiplying so you don't need to worry about it as much (and that's why a diacetyl rest doesn't cause problems when doing lagers for instance). Since you are really just running a big chemical reaction when brewing, as you heat up the reagents, the reactions pick up speed and a late temperature rise will allow the yeast to take out the remaining food in the wort as well as cleaning up after itself in the case of diacetyl. So, if you started fermenting at a relatively low temperature, say around 65F or so, that would tend to inhibit ester and phenol production (which is why lager yeasts are so clean as most are fermented at 50F or so). On the other hand, if you underpitched, that would tend to create more fermentation by products. Who knows what the end result of both those variables will end up being in your particular case. Other things that can create more fermentation by products are increased original gravity, fermentor geometry (shallow fermentors will allow more by products), oxigen concentration in the wort at pitch time and of course yeast strain.

So the trick with all this stuff is to adjust the fermentation variables to get the result you are looking for in your system. Although you want the fermentation by products with most Belgian beers, with the high gravity brews it often comes down to excercising some restraint as it is easy to overdo things and end up with flavor problems. I have done some judging of Belgian beers in contests over here and underattenuated beer with a bunch of hot fussel alcholols are very common and the resulting headaches are epic. By the way, all this stuff is relevant to brewing normal beers and a great style to brew as a test of some of this stuff is German Wheat bier. That yeast is extremely sensitive to the above mentioned fermentation variables and in many ways behaves much like many Belgian strains so it is good practice.

[floydmeddler]

Many thanks BW for this very clear response. I'm understanding this more now. As for the hangovers, I only ever drink two of these in one sitting maximum so may escape the head split!

Cheers again.

[floydmeddler]

This has now dropped to 1004. Comes in at 10.3%

Honey flavour is very much there. Tasting superb already although it needs conditioning time. Will rack to secondary on Friday and leave for 6-8 weeks before bottling.

[jmc]

Looking very good Floyd

Looks like you've got just the right environment for the yeast to attenuate really well.

Very tempted to try your recipe.

I have a couple of bottles of Duvel that are waiting there on a shelf in the kitchen, saying "Go on, you know you want to"

ATB
John

[floydmeddler]

Check out my Belgian before this one: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=35516&hilit=+typhon

That was something else. Give it a go!