Back at it...Ridley's Mild

[Hanglow]

You can buy it from some bakery wholesalers I think. I did have a link to one but I can't find it

I do appreciate the subtle flavours that using the darker sugars can impart to a beer, but with the range of Crystal and caramel malts we have today that is 'easy' to duplicate with perhaps an increase in quality.

Harveys, Bathams etc use it and they produce some of the best bitters and milds available. I don't think you can duplicate the flavour of invert with crystal and the idea that using sugar is somehow inferior is wrong imo, it's just another ingredient and one that is unfairly looked down upon, when used appropriately. Many of the best belgian beers use decent amounts for flavour and dryness, something that wouldn't be possible otherwise

[Kyle_T]

Mine came via Bako in London but you have to phone the order in, I remember seeing somewhere that Invert Sugar makes up just 2% of Ragus sales, whether this is a reason for them not selling to the home brew market, who knows.

The easiest way is probably to find a supplier who does syrup and form a group buy. Unfortunately I don't know what size contaier the syrup would come in. I may email Ragus and enquire.

[Aleman]

I know breweries use sugar, and it's not wrong to use it. Those Belgian Tripels and quads would be undrinkable if they didn't use 20-30% candi sugar, I certainly have no issue using sugar in my strong beers . . . but in a low gravity beer. . . . mmmmmmm . . . and yes it does add a different flavour when compared to a beer made with 'crystal' malt . . . but I said crystal and caramel malts, and there is a wide range of those available with massive differences in flavour from 'crystal' malts. . . . Honey malt for example, or special 'B', carapils, carahell, Caramunch . . . all significantly different from 'Crystal' malt. And that is before you throw in the additional flavours you can get from using say Munich or Vienna malts as part of the base malt instead of 'pale' malt. Brewers rarely change their grist with their 'standard' beers mainly because they desire consistency . . they cannot afford to experiment to use new malts to eliminate, something that was added as, probably, a cost reducer.

This of course is completely moot as Kyle has already said that this is a clone recipe from Ridley's from 1980, and you are either brewing the beer that was brewed then, or you are brewing a different beer.

[orlando]

You can buy it from some bakery wholesalers I think. I did have a link to one but I can't find it

I do appreciate the subtle flavours that using the darker sugars can impart to a beer, but with the range of Crystal and caramel malts we have today that is 'easy' to duplicate with perhaps an increase in quality.

Harveys, Bathams etc use it and they produce some of the best bitters and milds available. I don't think you can duplicate the flavour of invert with crystal and the idea that using sugar is somehow inferior is wrong imo, it's just another ingredient and one that is unfairly looked down upon, when used appropriately. Many of the best belgian beers use decent amounts for flavour and dryness, something that wouldn't be possible otherwise

Quite agree, sugar was often described as "malt substitute". It is not really a cheap alternative to Malt, it is an ingredient in its own right and one that deserves respect for how it contributes to the best beers in the country, as your examples point out. I haven't used Belgian sugars but note these are beet derived whereas British brewers use sugar derived from cane.

[Kyle_T]

I have email a company called ASR as they sell Liquid Syrup that is either renamed brewers invert or a brewing safe liquid Invert to see if they would consider supplying the home brew market.

I spoke to Rob (The Malt Miller) previously and he tried to acquire some in block form from Ragus for me a while back but they turned him down or one reason or another.

I could see a potential market as the topics I have seen suggest there is a demand for a supply of Invert Sugars but no supplier. If they would be willing to supply a trader if not us, I could speak to Rob again about the possibility of being able to obtain it through him?

Of course it would be subject to packaging requirements but he said the main issue before was the time and effort required to split the block made it unpractical in a workplace environment. He does now do the fresh wort kits and assuming he can buy the containers empty, this could potentially solve the issue.

Thoughts?

[Dennis King]

Thoughts?

Any source can only be good.

[seymour]

Thoughts?

Any source can only be good.

+1

[orlando]

I have email a company called ASR as they sell Liquid Syrup that is either renamed brewers invert or a brewing safe liquid Invert to see if they would consider supplying the home brew market.

I spoke to Rob (The Malt Miller) previously and he tried to acquire some in block form from Ragus for me a while back but they turned him down or one reason or another.

I could see a potential market as the topics I have seen suggest there is a demand for a supply of Invert Sugars but no supplier. If they would be willing to supply a trader if not us, I could speak to Rob again about the possibility of being able to obtain it through him?

Of course it would be subject to packaging requirements but he said the main issue before was the time and effort required to split the block made it unpractical in a workplace environment. He does now do the fresh wort kits and assuming he can buy the containers empty, this could potentially solve the issue.

Thoughts?

If Rob approaches Ragus they might consider selling in bulk to him, they do to brewers so why not? Syrup would be favourite from his point of view and frankly I would be happier with syrup.

[Kyle_T]

I have emailed some places and I'm current talking to someone from ASR about finding supplies for the syrups. I haven't been in touch with Ragus yet as I need to see if they still manufacture the syrups as well as the blocks.

[orlando]

I haven't been in touch with Ragus yet as I need to see if they still manufacture the syrups as well as the blocks.

They do.

[seymour]

Two more big suppliers are:

DDW
http://www.ddwcolor.com/wp-content/uplo ... rewing.pdf

Tate & Lyle
http://www.tateandlyle.com/ingredientsa ... yrups.aspx

[orlando]

Two more big suppliers are:

DDW
http://www.ddwcolor.com/wp-content/uplo ... rewing.pdf

Tate & Lyle
http://www.tateandlyle.com/ingredientsa ... yrups.aspx

Don't think the T&L syrup is right. They say it can be used in brewing but it is derived from corn not cane and doesn't say whether it is an inverted sugar.

[Kyle_T]

Well, progress so far:

Started off by speaking to ASR who manufacture syrups, they do supply direct but way outside of reasonable quantities for the home brewing market. They passed me onto the sales team who deal with resellers, the chap has been kind enough to pass me onto BAKO South East who supplied my block of sugar last year. I am awaiting a response.

I was also passed onto Murphy & Son who are in early talks with ASR about taking stock of Inverts again, I shortly after received a text message from Jamie of Murphy's, he has asked me to call him on Monday after explaining the general plan.

An email was sent directly to Ragus's contact address but no reply today.

A post has been splattered across the forums to see what kind of a response it receives in determining some level of interest. I would appreciate it if someone is a member of a forum I am not could spread the word. The bigger the interest, the better.

I left a message at The Malt Miller for a call back on Friday when Rob is back, I'm amassing a list of home brewing retail outlets to see if there is any interest in at least one taking stock to supply the market.

I have had a couple of dead ends with resellers who supply, but not what I'm after. Orlando is correct, Tate and Lyle deal in corn syrup so I haven't approached them yet.

I will continue my dealings tomorrow but now I'm off for a sit down and a cup of tea.

[BrewerBen]

Good work, you deserve more than a tea - pour yourself a homebrew. I'd definitely be interested in buying some brewers invert as i do like to do the occasional historic brew and have so far done the golden syrup / treacle blend thing to get to a similar colour. Its made good beer but i do wonder how much better the proper sugar would be.

[seymour]

Don't think the T&L syrup is right. They say it can be used in brewing but it is derived from corn not cane and doesn't say whether it is an inverted sugar.

...Orlando is correct, Tate and Lyle deal in corn syrup so I haven't approached them yet.

You're both right, Tate & Lyle is corn-based, as opposed to cane or beet sugar. I'm with you, cane is my first choice, and the Tate & Lyle syrups don't appear as dark and caramelized as I'd prefer, but it is definitely popular among brewers. I've seen the steel drums outside breweries with my own eyes. I really wish it wasn't such a "dirty secret". Some food for thought regarding corn syrup:

1.Yes, glucose syrups are "inverted" by definition. To make "invert sugar", you take any sucrose, add heat and acid, to flip its chemical structure into glucose and fructose. So technically, Tate & Lyle first convert the corn starch to sugar, then invert it, then isolate the glucose which is the good stuff brewers want most anyway. On that website, you'll see the next product up on the left is called "Glucose fructose syrups" which is their name for invert syrup, the preliminary step before pure glucose syrup. Soft drink manufacturers prefer Tate & Lyle Glucose Fructose Syrups (I've seen T&L train cars behind the St. Louis Dr. Pepper/Snapple plant), brewers prefer Glucose Syrup. See for yourself: at least 20 hits in The Home Brewer's Recipe Database alone. I'd bet big money much of that is corn-derived glucose.

2. Hey, I'm as trained to hate corn syrup as the next guy, but let's be honest. Corn, in a very real sense, is a cereal grain as is barley. So, some brewers prefer it over cane sugar simply because they can claim all-grain ingredients. Plus, depending on your location, and the scale of your brewery, corn syrup is probably more plentiful and cheaper.

3. I haven't ever done a side-by-side taste test of cane sugar invert syrup vs. beet sugar invert syrup vs. corn sugar invert syrup. I'd love to, that would be a fun experiment, both before and after fermentation. But I bet they taste almost exactly the same. Once the starch is converted to sugar and then inverted, chemically it's all indistinguishable, and serves the exact same purpose in the brew. I've brewed the same recipe with cane sugar and corn syrup on different occasions, and couldn't tell the difference.

I like this whole brewing sugar topic, sorry Kyle_T if we've gotten too far off track from your excellent Ridley's Mild research. I love that you guys don't immediately associate brewing sugars as a scandalous cheat. It's been a part of brewing history forever, and commercial brewers know the benefits of it but feel compelled to hide it. I think it's really time for all craft brewers and homebrewers to reevaluate their scorn for adjunct sugars in general. And frankly, I think the whole corn syrup thing reveals even the most enlightened brewers still harbour some unfounded prejudices in this area.

I'm up for rebuttals. Cheers!