SEYMOUR FLYER BEST

[Cozzyb]

happy belated birthday mate, brew looks awesome. Hope you like the yeast. Been trying to find a few more good English yeasts myself.

[seymour]

happy belated birthday mate, brew looks awesome. Hope you like the yeast. Been trying to find a few more good English yeasts myself.

Thanks. Yeah, it seems to be coming along nicely. High hopes.

[seymour]

UPDATE: over the weekend, I transferred from primary to secondary fermentor. I sometimes skip this step with English ales and go straight to bottling, but I wanted to give it some extra time to clear and condition, especially at this cool end of the temperature range. Measured gravity of 1014, but it's obviously still fermenting down.

My sneaky taste from the hydrometer jar was very nice, surprisingly bitter, I'd say staunchly in the 40 IBU range. Perhaps the alpha acids weren't as deteriorated as I'd expected, despite their age and bullying. If so, that would be yet another selling point for Flyer hops!

[barney]

Sounds like a nice brew Seymour

[Steve D]

I'm familiar with the principle, but that's not the concept here. I like Guinness as much as the next guy, maybe more, but I doubt I'd ever wanna brew it. It's everywhere, and cheap, so what's the point? This beer better be WAY more complex.

Blame it on all the trendy American Black IPAs I've tasted in the last few years, but I no longer feel that only pale ales are allowed to be hoppy. I can appreciate the interplay between hops bitterness and roasted grain bitterness. It's a tough balance, but DELICIOUS when done right. Even American interpretations of basic porter and stout are much hoppier than modern UK examples, and there's a time and place for both types. I'm really diggin' all Ron Pattinson's historical evidence that your Dark Milds, Stouts, India Porters, etc, almost all used to be MUCH hoppier too. What goes around, comes around, right?

Fair enough - I'm all for experimentation, and the American concept of More is More has certainly thrown some interesting and varied new beers into the mix... I always smile at 'Black IPA' Should that not be IBA? Historically yeah they did very often hop more heavily than now, and certainly with Export Pale Ales of which IPA is one, Porters for the Indian market and elsewhere, plus for anything that was brewed to be kept, eg, over summer. It was more about preservation then than flavour, shown by the fact that as soon as they could get away with it, the hopping rates came down. IPA brewed for the domestic market - ie, Pale Ale, was generally hopped less as it was often brewed less strong, needed less storage time, and didn't have to undergo the sea trip to India. Brewers had an eye on the purse then as much as they do now . I don't think beer hopping rates were set to give the drink particularly high bitterness at drinking time, but to preserve it in storage and they knew hop bitterness mellowed over time and certainly with IPA's they were often matured in Britain for up to a year before being shipped - paramount was the need for stability in the cask to avoid explosions in transit - and so the hopping rates reflect that as well. Also they often deliberately used aged hops, to reduce bittering levels. I think it's one of the things some American brewers missed when they started brewing interpretations of traditional IPA's was the that they needed aging and mellowing before drinking - they weren't supposed to be drunk too young and make your eyes water with bitterness, but that style and flavour seems to have caught on giving rise to the super IPA's, altogether more massive than the originals ever were. Still as you quite rightly say, it opens new avenues to explore and Hallelujah for that! I've still got some Traditional IPA I brewed five years ago - OG1070, with a pound of Goldings at the top of the boil, over 4oz at flame out, and an ounce dry in the cask for 6.3 US gallons. It's still sound, and the hop bitterness has receded nicely to reveal all sorts of complex hop flavours in with matured malt. When you sniff the emptied glass it's like you put your head in a bag of hops.

[seymour]

...I always smile at 'Black IPA' Should that not be IBA?

I whole-heartedly agree, that's been a pet peeve of mine too.

Some of the counter-arguments are bringing me around though: that the IPA acronym is now a thing, and has taken on a life of its own, apart from the original meaning of the spelled-out words. To most people, American hop-heads especially, "IPA" simply preps them for a very hoppy beer, and the P-for-Pale is completely lost. Nowadays, most IPAs over here are amber, some deep amber, into the copper range. No one bothered to call them "Amber IPA" or "IAA", and I'm glad, that would be silly. At least "Brown IPA" or "Black IPA" acknowledges a color deviation right there in the title. "IBA" doesn't really work because it still doesn't differentiate between Brown or Black, and besides, this style definitely no longer has anything to do with India. Sure, there were hoppy dark ales sent to India, but those were called India Porter, or simply India Ale (and could be any color the brewer wanted). You Englishmen invented India Pale Ale but I think we could all agree Americans brought IPA back into popularity, and India just doesn't figure in our national history/collective consciousness the way it does for you, so the I-for-India meaning is lost too. You could even argue the A-for-Ale meaning is lost, since Chico yeast is so damned neutral it barely throws any ale esters, some IPA is produced with lager yeast, and most IPA undergoes temperature controlled fermentations with lengthy cold-conditioning which sorta makes it a lager for all intents-and-purposes.

The alternative title many breweries have been arguing for is "Cascadian Dark Ale", which I'm sorry, is not a thing, and means nothing to most people, making it even more obnoxious than "Black IPA" to me at least. I believe brewers should feel free to name their own beers whatever they want, but at the end of the day, style guidelines ought to exist purely to give the drinker a clue as to what they're getting into. I think "Black IPA" accomplishes that, for the most part. As I'm sure you've gathered, I have a very hard time forming opinions.

In case you're interested, here's an interesting interview with Greg Koch, the "arrogant bastard" behind Stone Brewing, who is an out-spoken proponent of the Black IPA title. The interviewer is stumping for Cascadian Dark Ale, but obviously didn't know what he was talking about on most topics. I don't even think he knew when Greg was jabbin' him.
http://www.newschoolbeer.com/2012/01/gr ... stone.html

...I've still got some Traditional IPA I brewed five years ago - OG1070, with a pound of Goldings at the top of the boil, over 4oz at flame out, and an ounce dry in the cask for 6.3 US gallons. It's still sound, and the hop bitterness has receded nicely to reveal all sorts of complex hop flavours in with matured malt. When you sniff the emptied glass it's like you put your head in a bag of hops.

That sounds DELICIOUS, man. It made me think of this one of mine, just a few bottles left. From the "What's everyone suppin tonight?" thread:

SEYMOUR SAAZ STOOPID

When I was moving some stuff around in cellar last night, I found the lost box of 18 bottles of this magic elixir and just about flipped my sh!t. I long ago concluded it was gone. The idea was an Imperial Irish Red ale, fermented with Wyeast 1728 the glorious McEwans strain, and noble Saaz hops to 107 IBU. Not sure if it's officially an Imperial IPA or an American Barleywine. Whatever the case: rich and complex malt sweetness, biscuity, caramelly, fruity, excellent Scottish ale yeast esters with huge hop-bursted notes of earth, peat, flowers and black-pepper, full-bodied, creamy mouthfeel, everlasting fluffy foam and lace. 9% ABV, warming and harmonious. Wish you all were here.

Paired magnificently with a Deluxe Gyro. Good thing, too, 'cuz one of these on an empty stomach and you're drunk!

[timbo41]

Gyro? Call it a gyro,a Donner kebab or a.dog Burger. Round here you have to be drunk to eat one
" mmm that delicate blend of over cooked.rotisserie style Lamb offcut served with stale brined salad,topped.with arse burning chilli sauce. With a.side of jalapeno peppers and.soggy chips
God,I'm starving. Apres pub grub

[seymour]

timbo, you crack me up! Just to turn the screws on your starvation: the Greek restaurant a short walk from my house has lots of awesome craft ale on tap, including Odell Myrcenary Double India Pale Ale and Goose Island Matilda (a complex but easy-drinking Orval-inspired Belgian ale with faint Brett), both masterpieces. Luckily, the food is several ticks above a dirty street vendor, too.

[timbo41]

Oooh a 9% ipa ...definitely need a Donner after that beastie

[seymour]

That's funny. "Donner" over here makes us think of the Donner Party who got trapped in a snowy mountain pass on the Oregon Trail, a few survived by eating the ones who died. I hope a pint of Odell Myrecenary doesn't turn you into a cannibal!

[timbo41]

Yep sounds similar to the normal high street kebab
this side of pond. Honestly. They are, in the main,rubbish
And look same after Stella boy has thrown them back
up at two a.m!!!! As I said apres pub grub

[seymour]

Well, I finally got around to bottling day:

Seymour Flyer Best 1 with Adnams yeast, final gravity of 1012, primed with 48 g sugar, filled 21 bottles of assorted sizes.

Seymour Flyer Best 2 with Whitbread-B yeast, final gravity of 1013.5, primed with 67 g sugar, filled 2 mini-casks and 8 bottles.

I tasted both from the hydrometer jar. I'm not very good at predicting what the finished beers will taste like once they're slightly chilled, bottle-conditioned and carbonated. But, I can already tell they taste a lot like English Best Bitters I've tasted: very malty and very hoppy, more hops in the bitterness and flavor than aroma, with medium-body and well-rounded mouthfeel, somewhat fruity, bready, biscuity, with hints of caramel and toffee. If I didn't already know there was some vanilla in the corn syrup, I don't think I could've named it, but it did contribute a faint candy flavour. As I'd hoped, the Adnams version is noticeably more distinctive, it finished a bit drier, thus emphasizing the hops a bit more, with a really interesting tangy taste. I can't wait until these are ready in a few weeks!

[timothy]

Very nice! Can't wait to taste.

[seymour]

Look at that pretty colour. But tell me, what do you guys think? Is it too dark for an English Best Bitter? Both versions turned-out tasty, albeit very different. It's true what everyone says about Flyer hops: very nice refined bitterness, noticeable English profile, nice flavours and aromas too but they fade fairly quickly as the bottles age. The Whitbread version seems to tick all the true-to-style boxes. The Adnams yeast produced massive spicy Belgian-style esters and phenols, which I really enjoy, but it's definitely no longer an English bitter. It was a much higher attenuator too, so the alcohol percentage was higher, and it must not have been finished because the bottles are extremely highly carbonated.

I learned some important lessons though, and I'm currently reusing this yeast in my Oatmeal Molasses India Porter.