SEYMOUR BLACK RYE-P-A

[seymour]

Okay, so I’ve griped in the past about the silliness of the whole “Black IPA” concept. You know...how the name makes no sense (it says black and pale at the same time)...how it was already a thing (called Barclay Perkins East India Porter since 1805, thanks Ron Pattinson)...how it’s stupid to strive for intense dark colour without intense dark malt flavours (what’s wrong with malt and hop complexity?)...blah blah blah. But like everyone else who tastes a few good commercial examples, Black IPA is something I wanna drink a whole lot more of. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. Right?

You’ve also caught me using a lot more tried-and-true American hops than usual, but hey, they get the job done for this kinda beer. Don't worry though, English brewing techniques shine through in the malt selection, single-temp infusion mash, chalk and gypsum, and estery ale fermentation.

SEYMOUR BLACK RYE-P-A

6 US gal = 5 Imperial gal = 22.7 liters

GRAINBILL
60% = 6.25 lbs = 2.84 kg, Simpsons Best Pale Malt (UK)
12% = 1.25 lbs = 567 g, Pale Rye Malt (thanks, Mike C-Z)
10% = 1.04 lb = 472 g, Thomas Fawcett Crystal Malt II 62-68°L (UK)
8% = .83 lb = 376 g, Black Malt (UK)
10% = 1.04 lb = 472 g, Golden Invert Syrup (homemade during mash, added to the boil)
three handfuls of rice hulls to prevent stuck sparge
TOTAL: 10.24 lbs/4.64 kg

STRIKE grainbed with 3.5 US gal/2.9 Imp gal/13.2 L water at 163°F/73°C.

MASH at 151°F/66°C for 90 min. Stir-in rice hulls and a sprinkle of Calcium carbonate. Add black malt at the very end for dark tint but less roasty flavour.

VORLAUF and SPARGE with 6 US gal/5 Imp gal/22.7L water at 175°F/79°C to collect 7.5 US gal/6.25 Imp gal/28.4 L pre-boil volume.

BOIL for 60 min, stirring-in sugar and a sprinkle of gypsum.

HOPS (thanks Ehren!)
1 oz = 28 g, Ella (Australian), first wort addition
.5 oz = 14 g, Citra (US), 30 min
1 oz = 28 g, Centennial (US), 15 min
2 oz = 57 g, Challenger (UK cultivar but US grown), 5 min
2 oz = 57 g, Cascade (US), at flame-out
Dry hops to be added after primary fermentation: Simcoe & Willamette (US)

YEAST
a split batch to compare two popular dry strains, both fermented at 68°F/20°C
1. Coopers Ac+L dual ale & lager strain in a 5 gal carboy (Australian)
2. Youngs red sachet ale yeast (UK, not sold in the US, so thanks Clibit!)

APPROXIMATE STATS (assuming 83% mash efficiency, 79% yeast attenuation)
OG: 1053
FG: 1011
ABV: 5.5%
IBU: 75
COLOUR: hazy very dark reddish brown with beige foam

Grainbed, sans Black Malt



A close-up of the rice hulls, which look exactly like you expect, but I've heard this isn't commonly available on your side of the pond. I add them whenever I use a lot of rye or oats. They are basically just an inert, flavourless addition to break-up an otherwise sticky mash, to ensure a quick and easy run-off. They usually help.



Making invert syrup. It's really easy. While waiting on the mash anyway, I mix sugar, water and a few drops of lemon juice in a little cook pot and bring to a boil, stirring periodically. See how it starts out clear, but darkens a little through kettle caramelization? The longer you do this, the darker and more burnt-tasting it becomes. This time it came out fairly low-colour, like Lyle's Golden Syrup, which is essentially the same thing.



Colour comparison, before and after the black malt addition. To be honest, the original wort was much darker than I expected from just 10% Crystal 65°L. Perhaps this pale malt and pale rye malt are a bit darker than I'm used to?



Measuring out the hop additions. Most of these were given to me by pro-brewer Ehren Schmidt when he moved away. I'll buy fresh ones to use for dry-hopping.



The boil has begun, countdown on!



Taking a break to enjoy an Odell 90 Shilling. Mmmmm.



While I wait, I prepare the wort chiller, strainer, Ditch-style drill aerator, hydrometer jar, and airlocks in a pot with sanitizer. It saves a lot of time and worry in the next few steps.



Knock-out. Pouring through a strainer into another pot which is easier for me to chill. There's a strainer tube on the inside of my boil kettle, too, but this still helps a bit with such hoppy brews.



Chilling the wort down to yeast pitching temperature. The weather is starting to turn colder, which ought to chill the groundwater too, but it still took about a half hour to complete.



Measuring the original gravity. After temperature correction, I get 1053. I was pleasantly surprised by the 83% mash efficiency. I've been struggling with other base grains lately.



Split batch yeast shoot-out.



Both carboys filled, aerated, yeast pitched, airlocks fitted, tucked away for the night.

[seymour]

UPDATE: I pitched both yeasts Saturday evening. The Coopers carboy exhibited krausen within a couple hours, but not the Youngs. But by Sunday morning, both had thick krausen and very active airlock activity. Now Monday afternoon (day 3, if I'm counting right) the krausen is already falling and I haven't measured gravity again yet, but primary fermentation appears nearly done. Woah, that's really fast starting at 1053, right?!

I haven't tasted either yet, but the smells coming from the airlocks are very different. In the broadest sense, both have recognizeable English-style ale esters, but the Coopers (Australian, I know, but their yeast originated in England) smells like rising bread dough, more earthy and floral, with a softer fruitiness reminiscent of ripe juicy apricots, golden raisins, hint of banana. By contrast, the Youngs yeast smells much more like a Yorkshire Square type to me, funky in a cool way, also fruity but in a sharper, more piercing way, black plums, tart cherries, red wine grapes, cran-apple cocktail. Think Sam Smith Taddy Porter or Ringwood XXXX (Southern England, I know, but their open-fermenting, dual-strain yeast came from Hull up North.)

It's the exact same beer in both, so it blows my mind how different they already seem.

[Wonkydonkey]

I do the same thing, but use youngs London ale, and gales hsb (bottle conditioned) at the mo.

And yeh two compleatly diffent beers,

[seymour]

I do the same thing, but use youngs London ale, and gales hsb (bottle conditioned) at the mo.

And yeh two compleatly diffent beers,

Yeah, cool, I enjoy reading your posts. I know and love the Gales yeast, but tell me your impressions of the Youngs yeast.

[Clibit]

Interesting descriptions of the two yeast aromas. Really looking forward to the tasting notes!

[Wonkydonkey]

I do the same thing, but use youngs London ale, and gales hsb (bottle conditioned) at the mo.

And yeh two compleatly diffent beers,

Yeah, cool, I enjoy reading your posts. I know and love the Gales yeast, but tell me your impressions of the Youngs yeast.

Very nice I'm no person to really ask, but it's malty, nutty, caramel, and can be a bit sweet/slow fermenting towards the end. But I like it more than S05

And the gales, you only have to read there notes on it, it's spot on Dundee fruit cake.

[Fuggley Duckling]

I look forward to hearing how the black malt works out for you flavour-wise. I did a black rye IPA with a mix of Carafa Special 2 (4%) added 15min from end of mash and roasted wheat (4%) added at start of mash and it was a bit too roasty compared to the commercial black IPAs I've tried.

[Matt12398]

I've worked hard on a black IPA recipe over 3 successive brews. I steeped a pound of black malt in a half US gallon of cold water (bringing you some good old US measurements) for 24 hours. I added this in the last 5 minutes of the boil. The result is a soft roast that compliments the US hops character really well.

[barry44]

This is a really good thread for me as I've just had one of my new black IPAs which was based on the recipe in the Greg Hughes book although I went overboard with hops based on my pre boil gravity not meeting my post boil gravity.

I Mashed chocolate and carafa 3 for the full 60 minute mash and after 2 weeks in the bottle I am getting hops on the front followed up by a hint of coffee as I swallow.

Not unpleasant by any means but I will wait and see how it is after a while longer in the bottle.

[seymour]

Interesting descriptions of the two yeast aromas. Really looking forward to the tasting notes!

Thanks. So am I, I'm all out of homebrew, so very impatient for this beer.

...I know and love the Gales yeast, but tell me your impressions of the Youngs yeast.

Very nice I'm no person to really ask, but it's malty, nutty, caramel, and can be a bit sweet/slow fermenting towards the end. But I like it more than S05
And the gales, you only have to read there notes on it, it's spot on Dundee fruit cake.

That sounds good to me! Well put.

I look forward to hearing how the black malt works out for you flavour-wise. I did a black rye IPA with a mix of Carafa Special 2 (4%) added 15min from end of mash and roasted wheat (4%) added at start of mash and it was a bit too roasty compared to the commercial black IPAs I've tried.

Yeah, me too. The hydrometer sample was very malty and caramelly but not excessively toasty/roasty. To minimize those toasty/roasty flavours, trendy new brewers use debittered black malts such as Carafa III, Blackprinz, Midnight Wheat, etc. Mine was the plain ol' full-strength stuff. I happen to love roasty flavoured porters and stouts, and I like when they're extra hoppy too, so if this brew heads in that direction it will be fine with me. "Good enough for grandad, it's good enough for me"...that kinda thing.

Even so, I held out all the black malt until the very end of the mash, then immediately began sparging, so it was only "stewing" there for about 20 minutes or so. I can't imagine it would've had enough time to contribute as much flavour as if it had been mashed the whole 90 minutes. We'll see, I'll keep you posted.

I've worked hard on a black IPA recipe over 3 successive brews. I steeped a pound of black malt in a half US gallon of cold water (bringing you some good old US measurements) for 24 hours. I added this in the last 5 minutes of the boil. The result is a soft roast that compliments the US hops character really well.

That's another interesting way to approach this whole Black IPA craze, thanks for the tip!

This is a really good thread for me as I've just had one of my new black IPAs which was based on the recipe in the Greg Hughes book although I went overboard with hops based on my pre boil gravity not meeting my post boil gravity.

I Mashed chocolate and carafa 3 for the full 60 minute mash and after 2 weeks in the bottle I am getting hops on the front followed up by a hint of coffee as I swallow.

Not unpleasant by any means but I will wait and see how it is after a while longer in the bottle.

I don't have that book. What were the percentages of your Chocolate Malt and Carafa III Malt? How dark would you describe your final beer in the glass?

It looks like mine won't be exactly black, more of a deep reddish brown. Again, that'll be fine with me.

[Pinto]

UPDATEI haven't tasted either yet, but the smells coming from the airlocks are very different. In the broadest sense, both have recognizeable English-style ale esters, but the Coopers (Australian, I know, but their yeast originated in England) smells like rising bread dough, more earthy and floral, with a softer fruitiness reminiscent of ripe juicy apricots, golden raisins, hint of banana. By contrast, the Youngs yeast smells much more like a Yorkshire Square type to me, funky in a cool way, also fruity but in a sharper, more piercing way, black plums, tart cherries, red wine grapes, cran-apple cocktail. Think Sam Smith Taddy Porter or Ringwood XXXX (Southern England, I know, but their open-fermenting, dual-strain yeast came from Hull up North.)

It's the exact same beer in both, so it blows my mind how different they already seem.

Interesting observation there Seymour - from my research, you're actually fermenting with two ex-pat Aussies; Cooper's is (IIRC) their own in house modded strain, and all of the research I've done into the mysterious and "unidentified" Young's Ale yeast point towards it being a former British convict, transported to Botany Bay and then sold back home, Mauribrew Y514

Look forwards to your tasting notes on this one - Young's Packet yeast get a lot of bad press as Inferior, but in (most) of my experiments, I've been pleased with the performance. ( It didnt want to settle properly when used to ferment my Galaxy pale - very loose in the bottle)

[seymour]

Interesting observation there Seymour - from my research, you're actually fermenting with two ex-pat Aussies; Cooper's is (IIRC) their own in house modded strain, and all of the research I've done into the mysterious and "unidentified" Young's Ale yeast point towards it being a former British convict, transported to Botany Bay and then sold back home...Look forwards to your tasting notes on this one - Young's Packet yeast get a lot of bad press as Inferior, but in (most) of my experiments, I've been pleased with the performance. ( It didnt want to settle properly when used to ferment my Galaxy pale - very loose in the bottle)

Oh my god, are you serious?! That is funny. For quite some time, I've wanted to try these two popular (popular outside the USA, in any case) dry yeast strains, comparing and contrasting their characteristics. Based on what you've shared, it seems both come from the same AB-Mauri lab in Australia. Based on my mini trial though, they are definitely not one-and-the-same. Here's what I've gathered…see if it fits with your findings. Comments and rebuttals welcome.

1. Coopers yeast, a complicated story

Historically, the Coopers Brewery was founded by an Englishman, surely using English ale yeast. Over 90 years of repitching their multi-strain culture, open-fermenting in wooden barrels with only primitive temperature control, Coopers Brewery yeast took on its own recognizable traits: hazy, uniquely fruity, bready, earthy, kinda rough-around-the-edges in a good way. Nowadays for consistency, they use an "improved" single-strain with similar characteristics, fairly neutral when fermented cool but lots of Hefeweizen-ish banana ester and spicy phenols when fermented warm. Supposedly, that's the one propagated and sold commercially as YeastLabs A01 and White Labs WLP009. That's the story at the brewery proper.

The yeasts supplied with Coopers homebrew kits are a different story, and there are at least three different strains, none of which are the same as the actual brewery yeast. The best-selling gold sachet which I'm using is called Ac+L because it is an all-purpose dual-strain, presumably to ensure every homebrewer regardless of skill or temperature will get some kind of fermented, drinkable result. The Ac strain is a proprietary yeast developed in-house by Coopers but propagated and distributed by AB-Mauri. Coopers states their L strain is a common, commercially available lager yeast. Separately, some Coopers homebrew kits are packed with yet another dry yeast, the A strain, a commercially available ale yeast not unique to Coopers.

Here is my summarized theory, which I think aligns with all known facts, but some members disagree. I've tried to clarify with AB-Mauri reps, but they have declined to answer (an understandable business decision, but it never hurts to ask.)

Coopers Brewery yeast = liquid single-strain propagated and sold commercially as YeastLabs A01 and White Labs WLP009

Coopers A = dry single-strain Mauribrew "English Ale" Y514

Coopers Ac = dry single-strain Mauribrew "Australian Ale" B514

Coopers L = dry single-strain Mauribrew "Australian Lager" Y497*

Coopers Ac+L = dry dual-strain sold in kits or as standalone Coopers gold sachet, very forgiving, variable

*I wonder if AB-Mauri's "Australian Lager" was derived from innovative brewer Auguste Joseph François de Bavay's (a student of Louis Pasteur) 1927 "Melbourne No.6" strain, the original pure lager strain in Australia. Or perhaps it's just another version of Weihenstephan 34/70. Why must this stuff be kept secret? In today's beer nerd culture, knowledge like this could be a compelling selling-point.

2. Youngs yeast

Likewise, the Youngs Brewery yeast is not the same as Youngs-branded dry yeast sachets. The historic Youngs Brewery yeast is proprietary, with familiar Southern English ale yeast esters, supposedly available to homebrewers by culturing a live-conditioned bottle of Youngs Special London Ale. I don't know of any commercial yeasts specifically derived from the Youngs Brewery strain, do you?

Red sachet "ale yeast": a common, inexpensive dry yeast in England, but not sold in the USA. Some people swear by it, but there are plenty of derisive online comments. As always, it's hard to know what to believe since there are so many factors which affect the final taste of homebrew. I've heard it settles firm in the bottle (though Pinto had trouble once) and produces pleasant English ale esters like Nottingham though sometimes produces "overbearing chalky esters." I don't know what that means, honestly, since chalk is not a yeast-derived ester, it is Calcium carbonate from the local water supply. Perhaps Youngs Ale Yeast performs poorly for brewers with very hard water (but to the same extent as any yeast)? Or perhaps it is a poor-flocculator, leaving some grit suspended in the mouthfeel? I don't know yet from experience. Some brewers assume Youngs Ale Yeast was derived from Whitbread-B, as so many commercial English ale yeasts were; that's unlikely since it performs very differently than Safale S-04 for instance. Alternatively, Pinto's research points toward a repackaged Mauribrew Y514, which if he and I are both right, makes Youngs Ale Yeast the same as Coopers A strain (and many other outsourced homebrew kits, for that matter.) It's A Small World After All.

So, am I actually staging a Mauribrew B514 + Lager versus Mauribrew Y514 punch-up? Good grief.

I could have this all wrong. For instance, why would AB-Mauri produce two distinct strains B514 and Y514 with near-identical names? Do those refer to the same (or closely related) strain? If so, is it possible the main difference between my carboys is one has lager yeast blended in? Warm-fermenting as I am, essentially producing a darker, hoppier California Cream Ale?

[super_simian]

Seymour, a couple of points and questions if I may:

-I'm 99% sure the Coopers dry yeast as sold separately is 100% their proprietary yeast, not a blend. The blends only come packaged with the kits.

-The proprietary dry strain (Ac) was developed by Coopers to most closely replicate their commercial culture in a dry format, when it was determined that the commercial strain did not respond well to the drying process. From what I understand, regrettably few strains do. An interesting tidbit came to light recently when a person connected to Coopers homebrewing operations mentioned online that the dry yeast derives at least some of its ancestry from a commercial distilling culture!

-I'm starting to think that the 'commercial ale yeast' (A) in those kits is not always the same. So the commercial ale yeast supplied with the Stout is different to that in the Wheat, for example. Seems obvious in that example, but no-one is totally sure.

As you might remember, I am a believer in the Coopers Ac yeast, which has a bit of a bad rep domestically (familiarity breeding contempt?).

Neither Mauri or Coopers offer their dry yeast domestically through official channels; I have often done my house ale with Coopers (scrounged from kit brewers who have 'upgraded'), and recently managed to get hold of some 514 (as Sterling Ale) to do a test run on that same recipe. So far so good, although it's not floccing quite as fast as Coopers, which rivals Notto and S04 for stickiness.

May I ask:

a) Where you found the code B514 for the Ac yeast?

And b) What leads you to believe that the commercial yeast in Coopers kits is Mauri 514?

[Clibit]

As far as Youngs goes, I actually think theres an awful lot of guess work here. I've read extensively over the last few years and never seen any mention of Youngs dried ale yeast being Mauribrew. I doubt that it is, personally. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence.

And as far as the Youngs brewery (no connection to Youngs home brew supplies that I'm aware of) yeast goes, I have seen a lot of evidence to suggest that Wyeast 1318 is the brewery strain. There is no evidence that it is the Boddingtons strain as widely believed on the internet. Which is backed up by the fact that you can't make anything like a Boddingtons clone with it. I read a post a couple of years ago from someone who had emailed the Youngs brewery and they had replied confirming 1318 to be their yeast. And Wyeast say that 1318 comes from a traditional London brewery.

[barry44]

I don't have that book. What were the percentages of your Chocolate Malt and Carafa III Malt? How dark would you describe your final beer in the glass?

It looks like mine won't be exactly black, more of a deep reddish brown. Again, that'll be fine with me.

Chocolate was 3.5% and Carafa was 2.9%.

Its a very dark colour.