Ghost ship clone (BIAB)

[orlando]

Good point Rob. Under pitching in HB has happened for years. Seems the fear of over pitching is greater. Surprises me that the manufacturers haven't responded to this. Can't see how it would hit profits that much to bump up the size and as dried yeast is such good value they could even put the price up a bit. Can you repackage without compromise, or would that break an agreement?

[f00b4r]

Allow me to show my ignorance here about something I've never understood!

If yeast is pitched at a low rate, say 0.4g/L, but the fermentation gets going, why doesn't the yeast just keep multiplying until the primary fermentation is over? In other words, why does a low pitch rate for dry yeast lead to a stuck fermentation?

Guy

It’s like asking a 100m sprinter to suddenly run 800m hurdles, they will probably make it across the finish line but won’t be in the best shape. Don’t ask me for the exact biology behind it, although someone else might be able to provide that.
Strangely enough it apparently isn’t true of Brett, pitching rate is not so important.

[borischarlton]

Allow me to show my ignorance here about something I've never understood!

If yeast is pitched at a low rate, say 0.4g/L, but the fermentation gets going, why doesn't the yeast just keep multiplying until the primary fermentation is over? In other words, why does a low pitch rate for dry yeast lead to a stuck fermentation?

Guy

This is really handy that you ask Guy, I am building a portfolio of questions that need answering on a professional basis. Since we are working with a lab, we can get these questions answered accurately and with full confidence.

[f00b4r]

Not "Thames" water, "Town water". They're in Suffolk, a long way from the Thames.

I did wonder if that was a typo or has been misheard.
My wife isn’t really into beer but had a try of my pint of Ghost Ship when I was over earlier this year and has been asking since when I will brew a clone! So I am really interested to see if this recipe gets close. It really is a cracking beer.

A partner who isn’t really into beer but with a good palate is a good person to have critique your beer. Mine usually complains that it is too bitter but I have given her DIPA’s that she really liked, so it showed me it can be about balance between the different characteristics.

[borischarlton]

Can you repackage without compromise, or would that break an agreement?

Repackaging goes on, with some even using the original branding which is just taking the p1ss. Repacking into a different brand, such as your own is possible, just then need to build the brand and educate your customers;)

[orlando]

[clarets7]

Intrigued by the yeast choice in the MM kit - two packs of S04 to start with and then one pack of Lalbrew Farmhouse after four days

We have been / continuing doing a lot of research and education into dry yeast pitching rates. Most brewers simply assume that one packet of yeast is suitable for a 23 litre batch. This simply isn't the case. The pitching rate for S-04 is 0.8g per litre so it requires two packs for the 23 litre batch. We are fully ready for the "one sachet, it's always worked for me." However, there is a good reason that Adnams get their beer into cask on day 7.
It also really shows in the amount of kit brewers who have stalled fermentations, most Muntons kits come with 6g of yeast, which I believe is Nottingham. If so the pitching rate is 0.5 - 1g p/litre, it explains a lot.

That does actually explain a lot. I used to make batches at a maximum volume of 19L, usually less, so probably got away with it. Also used your West Coast Ale quite a bit which is 15g. Since I bought a new King Keg though I've made a few 25L batches (all around the 1040 mark) and they have struggled with only one 11g pack, like Guy I assumed it would just be a bit slower. It would also explain why one of my small 6L stove top brews came out so well when I pitched more yeast than I usually would. I also think that some of the flavours that I was after are removed by the yeast if the fermentation goes on too long, so quick fermentation and get it off the yeast sounds like the way to go.

[keith1664]

The intriguing thing for me is the alkalinity target. In previous conversations (we invited him to do a Zoom call with NAB during lockdown) he said the target was 90, now saying 70. I was surprised by this as the accepted wisdom for say a Bitter is 20-30. I asked why they went for such a "high" target. His response was it suited their yeast. Will that target suit these three? Be interesting to find out.

I thought it was 70 as in the video.
They're also adding Calcium Chloride to the mash which will drop the ph.

[orlando]

I was sure the first time I spoke to him about he said 90. Have you still got that recording? He has always struck me as being a bit vague about their water treatment.

[keith1664]

It should still be there

[keith1664]

It is, in it he says the incoming water is round 300 alkalinity which they drop to 90-100 with sulphuric acid, he didn't mention CaCl until asked about how they got the mash ph in range but they do add that to both mash and sparge. Sulphate to Chloride ratio ends up around 3:1 for most of their beers except the lagers which will be 2:1.
They aim for a mash ph around 5.3 and end up around 300-350ppm calcium.

[keith1664]

Maybe it was at a later visit I thought I heard 70 for alkalinity.

[orlando]

As I said, he is a little vague. Good info for Rob and the team. I don't remember him saying anything different about GS Vs Southwold.

[guypettigrew]

Allow me to show my ignorance here about something I've never understood!

If yeast is pitched at a low rate, say 0.4g/L, but the fermentation gets going, why doesn't the yeast just keep multiplying until the primary fermentation is over? In other words, why does a low pitch rate for dry yeast lead to a stuck fermentation?

Guy

It’s like asking a 100m sprinter to suddenly run 800m hurdles, they will probably make it across the finish line but won’t be in the best shape. Don’t ask me for the exact biology behind it, although someone else might be able to provide that.
Strangely enough it apparently isn’t true of Brett, pitching rate is not so important.

Surely it's more like a relay race. The yeast will keep budding and producing 'new' yeast cells for as long as the conditions are right, to include food, nutrients and temperature.

The yeast cells at the end of fermentation will be descendants of the ones introduced at the beginning.

Or have I just made a complete fool of myself?!!

Guy

[clarets7]

Allow me to show my ignorance here about something I've never understood!

If yeast is pitched at a low rate, say 0.4g/L, but the fermentation gets going, why doesn't the yeast just keep multiplying until the primary fermentation is over? In other words, why does a low pitch rate for dry yeast lead to a stuck fermentation?

Guy

It’s like asking a 100m sprinter to suddenly run 800m hurdles, they will probably make it across the finish line but won’t be in the best shape. Don’t ask me for the exact biology behind it, although someone else might be able to provide that.
Strangely enough it apparently isn’t true of Brett, pitching rate is not so important.

Surely it's more like a relay race. The yeast will keep budding and producing 'new' yeast cells for as long as the conditions are right, to include food, nutrients and temperature.

The yeast cells at the end of fermentation will be descendants of the ones introduced at the beginning.

Or have I just made a complete fool of myself?!!

Guy

"as long as the conditions are right" may be the clue, maybe with dried yeast we've got lazy and don't provide the optimum environment? I gave up oxygenating the wort for dried yeast as the manufacturers say it's not needed. I might take Eric's advice and get some more yeast nutrient in as well.