Ghost ship clone (BIAB)

[clarets7]

It is, in it he says the incoming water is round 300 alkalinity which they drop to 90-100 with sulphuric acid, he didn't mention CaCl until asked about how they got the mash ph in range but they do add that to both mash and sparge. Sulphate to Chloride ratio ends up around 3:1 for most of their beers except the lagers which will be 2:1.
They aim for a mash ph around 5.3 and end up around 300-350ppm calcium.

In the video he talks about adding calcium sulphate and magnesium chloride to the mash, the latter specifically to get the magnesium levels up.

[orlando]

It’s like asking a 100m sprinter to suddenly run 800m hurdles, they will probably make it across the finish line but won’t be in the best shape. Don’t ask me for the exact biology behind it, although someone else might be able to provide that.
Strangely enough it apparently isn’t true of Brett, pitching rate is not so important.

Surely it's more like a relay race. The yeast will keep budding and producing 'new' yeast cells for as long as the conditions are right, to include food, nutrients and temperature.

The yeast cells at the end of fermentation will be descendants of the ones introduced at the beginning.

Or have I just made a complete fool of myself?!!

Guy

"as long as the conditions are right" may be the clue, maybe with dried yeast we've got lazy and don't provide the optimum environment? I gave up oxygenating the wort for dried yeast as the manufacturers say it's not needed. I might take Eric's advice and get some more yeast nutrient in as well.

CML dried yeast rehydration recommendations are to oxygenate 5 minutes after pitching. Very odd!

[MashBag]

Surely it's more like a relay race. The yeast will keep budding and producing 'new' yeast cells for as long as the conditions are right, to include food, nutrients and temperature.

The yeast cells at the end of fermentation will be descendants of the ones introduced at the beginning.

Or have I just made a complete fool of myself?!!

Guy

I am with you there.
I understood for wine yeast (still saccharomyces cerevisiae) that YAN - yeast available nitrogen - was very important. As is oxygen.
After the rehydration the yeast will go through a lag stage (that you can sometimes smell)
Yeast first runs aerobic reproducing and than anaerobic producing ethanol and carbon dioxide.

I would like some more clarity here, because I have successfully pitched 5g in 25l (beer) - 50g in 25l (wine) and 20g in 500l (wine & after conversations with Prof. Gervin) and all finished correctly.
The only conclusion I can draw is the chemistry in beer (for the yeast) is very different.

When you count active cells under a microscope, there is an 6 million* cells per ml that is considered the correct amount.
* can't remember exactly might be 6. Sorry.

[clarets7]

It is, in it he says the incoming water is round 300 alkalinity which they drop to 90-100 with sulphuric acid, he didn't mention CaCl until asked about how they got the mash ph in range but they do add that to both mash and sparge. Sulphate to Chloride ratio ends up around 3:1 for most of their beers except the lagers which will be 2:1.
They aim for a mash ph around 5.3 and end up around 300-350ppm calcium.

That seems a very high level of calcium, even Murphy's suggest a maximum of 220ppm?

[orlando]

Murphy's don't make Beer.

[MashBag]

Murphy's don't make Beer.

Nice.

[IPA]

Murphy's don't make Beer.

They do make an acceptable stout

[Eric]

Murphy's don't make Beer.

No, they don't, but did before becoming chemical manufacturer and consultancy to the brewing industry.

It is, in it he says the incoming water is round 300 alkalinity which they drop to 90-100 with sulphuric acid, he didn't mention CaCl until asked about how they got the mash ph in range but they do add that to both mash and sparge. Sulphate to Chloride ratio ends up around 3:1 for most of their beers except the lagers which will be 2:1.
They aim for a mash ph around 5.3 and end up around 300-350ppm calcium.

That seems a very high level of calcium, even Murphy's suggest a maximum of 220ppm?

With alkalinity of around 300 ppm, calcium level will likely be over 120 ppm, and be present in both mash and sparge liquor. My water typically has 80 ppm calcium will provide pH 5.3 with some pale malts in a thick mash when alkalinity is reduced to 15 to 20 ppm. Ghost ship Is made with pale malt plus, Caramalt and Crystal Rye Malt, both of which lower pH further. Thus for pH 5.3 with calcium at 120ppm +, alkalinity might be of an order of 30 ppm.

Paul Kolbach found alkalinity increased pH 3.5 times as much as calcium would lower it. So, with calcium increased by 175 ppm, alkalinity might be increased by a further 175/3.5 = 50 ppm to achieve a similar result.

With a minimum of 120 ppm calcium in the sparge liquor and its alkalinity reduced further will keep pH of sparge runnings within bounds, while also lowering the average level of calcium less than 300 ppm + of the mash.

[clarets7]

That makes sense now if you are talking 300ppm in the mash. Not easy to do with a one pot system though, but then again I don't need to do that given my soft water.

[MashBag]

I might run batch next week. What/where is the latest recipe or has it not changed?

[clarets7]

I might run batch next week. What/where is the latest recipe or has it not changed?

Look on the Malt Miller website, they've got the recipe kit for sale, with full list of ingredients and timings.

[MashBag]

Good shout thanks.

[Eric]

That makes sense now if you are talking 300ppm in the mash. Not easy to do with a one pot system though, but then again I don't need to do that given my soft water.

Indeed, impossible with a single pot. We are talking of the ultimate technology of late 19th and early 20th century producing a premium product with late 20th and 21st century equipment and ingredients.

I don't care for Ghost Ship, probably because of my detest for Citra. I can manage US Cascade to limited degree, in fact, find it can play a complimentary part when used in small amount, late.

The following is almost certainly their supply water.

Adnams.jpg (71.74 KiB) Viewed 2939 times

The following was given as a final profile.
Alkalinity 70ppm
Calcium 150ppm
Magnesium 10ppm
Chloride 80ppm
Sulphate 270ppm

But if their averaged supply water was treated with sulphuric acid to reduce alkalinity to 70 ppm, the sulphate content would be increased by
(310-70) x 0.96, which is 270 ppm, the figure they quote as the final total, that more probably is 405 ppm.

I think some figures have gotten a bit mixed, but that's neither surprising or unusual.

[clarets7]

I'd agree with that Eric, some rough calculations (based on mash calcium at 300ppm) gives an overall calcium level as around 200ppm, sulphate as around 400ppm and chloride 135ppm, so that ties up with Keith saying the sulphate chloride ratio is 3:1.

[Eric]

I'd agree with that Eric, some rough calculations (based on mash calcium at 300ppm) gives an overall calcium level as around 200ppm, sulphate as around 400ppm and chloride 135ppm, so that ties up with Keith saying the sulphate chloride ratio is 3:1.

Just noticed my calculation on alkalinity neutralised by sulphuric acid was wrong, alkalinity is as bicarbonate, not calcium carbonate as used. That means extra sulphate will not be 270 ppm , but 270/1.22 = 221. But whatever, if they targeted and achieved pH 5.3 into the kettle with 70 ppm alkalinity, which might be in terms of bicarbonate, they would need more than 148 Ca++ in the mash. I won't be trying to brew it.