1940 Whitbread London Stout

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Fuggled Mind
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1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:36 am

I'm having a go at doing a war time brew today. Always been curious what beer during the war was like. This one is from Ron Pattinson's War!
The recipe is remarkably similar to the 1940 porter (which I didn't fancy brewing as it was under 3%)

Anyway, here are the figures
19L
Start gravity 1.044
expected final gravity 1.012
Should give an ABV of 4.1%

Grain bill
2.68kg Maris Otter 78.5%
210g Brown malt 6.3%
210g chocolate malt (I'm using Best Malz) 6.3%
20g oats 0.6%
280g Invert no 3 (homemade) 8.3%

Hops
a blend of fuggle hops from my freezer - both leaf and pellet
29g Fuggle leaf FWH 90 (4.18%) @ 90 mins
5g Fuggle pellet FWH 90 (4.5%) @ 90 mins
12g US Fuggle pellet (5.2%) @ 60 mins
12g Fuggle pellet (4.5%) @ 30 mins

Yeast
Mangrove Jack's Empire ale
Mashing at 64°C for 90 mins
Sparging at 80°C
Hope to ferment at 20°C

I'll try and post pics along the way

For the meanwhile - here's a pic of the grain before milling
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20190215_083055.jpg
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HTH1975
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by HTH1975 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:53 pm

64C seems a low mash temperature for a stout - you won’t get the body of a stout, especially with that sugar to thin out the body even further. I’d expect the FG to be more like 1.008

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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by JJSH » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:29 pm

I will be really interested to see how this turns out, I love brewing historic recipes.
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:58 am

HTH1975 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:53 pm
64C seems a low mash temperature for a stout - you won’t get the body of a stout, especially with that sugar to thin out the body even further. I’d expect the FG to be more like 1.008
You're right - the original recipe is 65°C, which is still really low but there's quite a few old recipes from the Barclay Perkins Let's Brew series with seriously low mashing temps. I just opted to drop the mash temp 1 degree lower because I've heard Empire ale (formerly Newcastle Dark) has poor attenuation. I could use S-04 (supposedly a Whitbread strain) but wanted more flavour.

I'll post a few more pics soon but this stout really is a stout in name only. I'd say it's more like a strong dark mild or a porter.
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:44 am

Was a reasonably good brew day but the sparge was a nightmare. I fly sparge - normally takes me around an hour to an hour and a half but this time, it took well over two. The flow was really playing up. Could never get a trickle - it was either full on or bugger all. I began to wonder if I'd end up with shocking efficiency and decided if that was the case, I'd settle for the weaker 1940 porter with an abv of 2.84%.

I added homemade invert no 3 sugar. I have no idea how close to the real thing it is. I've made it 3 times in all and int his recipe I've used a mix of two different ones. I've noticed that when using invert no 3 without crystal malt, you get a red wine type flavour. With crystal malt, it seems to really enhance the dark fruit flavours you can get with darker crystal malts. How it will work with brown malt and chocolate is anyone's guess. When I make invert, I use cream of tartar. Apparently, it creates a more honey like favour than citric acid.

It worked out well in the end and I hit target gravity but this doesn't look like any stout I know. I'm guessing it was coloured with caramel at bottling. Then again, maybe the war was already having an effect on beer styles and it really was this brown. It looks like it could be a strong mild or a porter. As mentioned, the mash temp is very low and it's going to be thin and dry. 20g of oats is hardly going to add body. Ron said Whitbread did this so that they could legally sell their beers as oatmeal stout.

I've brewed quite a few vintage beers and they have all been very drinkable so I'm looking forward to trying this but in my mind, I'm already thinking of this as a mild (which is no bad thing).
Attachments
Resizer_15502599209273.jpg
Hit target gravity
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:11 am

Here's the rest of the pics I thought I'd attached. I'm useless at this thing
Attachments
Resizer_15502599209270.jpg
First wort hops ready to go
Resizer_15502599209271.jpg
Waiting for the boil.
Resizer_15502599209272.jpg
Good rolling boil
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by HTH1975 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm

I’d guess that your invert sugar isn’t as dark as the real thing. I know that the stuff I got does give plenty of colour.

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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:50 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm
I’d guess that your invert sugar isn’t as dark as the real thing. I know that the stuff I got does give plenty of colour.
Do you have the real thing? I'd love to get my hands on the proper stuff but living in Switzerland, it's not all that practical. Homemade is the only way to go. I'm sure the difference between the homemade invert no 3 and manufactured stuff is night and day but until they decide to package it into smaller containers, I can only dream. :D
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by HTH1975 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:57 pm

Fuggled Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:50 pm
HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm
I’d guess that your invert sugar isn’t as dark as the real thing. I know that the stuff I got does give plenty of colour.
Do you have the real thing? I'd love to get my hands on the proper stuff but living in Switzerland, it's not all that practical. Homemade is the only way to go. I'm sure the difference between the homemade invert no 3 and manufactured stuff is night and day but until they decide to package it into smaller containers, I can only dream. :D
Yes I have Ragus Brublock #3 invert. It has the taste and consistency of fudge.

I’ve made my own invert sugar and it’s not the same imo.

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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:23 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:57 pm
Yes I have Ragus Brublock #3 invert. It has the taste and consistency of fudge.

I’ve made my own invert sugar and it’s not the same imo.
I've made inverts 1-3. I brewed a Bateman's XXXB with the number 2 and thought I'd nailed the flavour. I guess replicating no's 3 & 4 is going to be pretty difficult but I'll keep trying.

What have you brewed with the invert no 3?
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by HTH1975 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:42 pm

Fuggled Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:23 pm
HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:57 pm
Yes I have Ragus Brublock #3 invert. It has the taste and consistency of fudge.

I’ve made my own invert sugar and it’s not the same imo.
I've made inverts 1-3. I brewed a Bateman's XXXB with the number 2 and thought I'd nailed the flavour. I guess replicating no's 3 & 4 is going to be pretty difficult but I'll keep trying.

What have you brewed with the invert no 3?
I’ve brewed a number of different pale ales, IPAs and bitters with it.

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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by JJSH » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:12 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:57 pm
Fuggled Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:50 pm
HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm
I’d guess that your invert sugar isn’t as dark as the real thing. I know that the stuff I got does give plenty of colour.
Do you have the real thing? I'd love to get my hands on the proper stuff but living in Switzerland, it's not all that practical. Homemade is the only way to go. I'm sure the difference between the homemade invert no 3 and manufactured stuff is night and day but until they decide to package it into smaller containers, I can only dream. :D
Yes I have Ragus Brublock #3 invert. It has the taste and consistency of fudge.

I’ve made my own invert sugar and it’s not the same imo.
Do you mind me asking where did you get your Brublock from, and what quantity did it come in?
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by paulg » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:49 pm

"Do you mind me asking where did you get your Brublock from, and what quantity did it come in?"

I too would be interested in knowing this,If you have loads would you be prepared to sell some?

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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Eric » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:12 pm

Bako are agents for Ragus and can order invert should you require any. It comes in 25 kg blocks and it isn't cheap.

I believe their process dissolves appropriate cane sugars (sucrose) in heated water, then hydrochloric acid is added to achieve a specific pH. When inversion is complete, the acidity is neutralised with sodium bicarbonate. For solid block the syrup is then seeded with fructose.

I think the picture is of #3 which is very much as HTH1975 described. As shown below, it is supplied in cardboard boxes with plastic liners, filled when still in liquid form.

R0010136.JPG
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Re: 1940 Whitbread London Stout

Post by Fuggled Mind » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:29 am

Eric wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:12 pm
I believe their process dissolves appropriate cane sugars (sucrose) in heated water, then hydrochloric acid is added to achieve a specific pH. When inversion is complete, the acidity is neutralised with sodium bicarbonate. For solid block the syrup is then seeded with fructose.
Wow, complicated process. That's definitely not how I make it when I knock up a 1kg batch in the kitchen. :shock:

Amazing how something so light can darken things so much.

Was this the only way invert number 3 was made?
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