23kg Muttons LME???

[strideredc]

can anyone answer this?

i do mainly AG but also a bit of mini mash and use tones of this stuff (i cant tell the difference between either that i make??) i am experimenting on the quickest quality beer i can make for when i dont have time to get everything out of the shed and boil for hours ect...

the question is do i have to boil this LME (i get it form the malt miller in 23kg boxes) as i always have boiled it before, or can i make a extract and cold water beer and add say a bit of crystal and boil the hops ( with a bit of LME for hop extraction) separately???

[soupdragon]

Hi strideredc

Strictly speaking, yes it will need boiling. However, due to my own boiler size limitations. I do partial mash/partial boil brews. I usually mash half my fermentables then boil with the full hop schedule before topping up in my fermenter with malt extract and cold water to 5 gallons. It's not ideal but I get a very nice drinkable beer out of it. The only issue I can see from not boiling is that the beer suffers ( ? ) from a slight haze. Not a problem for me but could be for some. By the way I use the repackaged liquid extract from Rob too although he's been out of stock for a while

Cheers Tom

[strideredc]

hi tom. so its not the same as the LME in the beer kits you get then as you dont need to boil them?

[sparky Paul]

As far as I know, the 23Kg Munton's Premium Malt Extract from Rob is the same as the stuff sold in 1.8Kg cans.

As it's not sold as diastatic extract, boiling should not be necessary.

[leedsbrew]

The main reason you don't have to boil the 1.8kg kits is becouse it will have undergone a botulinum cook so will be (as we [homebrewers] use the term) sterile/sanatized (delete as you prefer). I take it you will not be using the whole 23kg of LME at once? Once you have opened the 23kg of LME and introduced air (and anything that is in it), would you be happy to ferment without a boil?

[soupdragon]

Whetever leedsbrew said

I don't have the problem with leaving a container open as I only use the repackaged 1.5kg packs that Rob sells. I wouldn't fancy using extract from a can that's been left open for any length of time. Although with the concentration of sugars being so high in malt extract I don't know if any mould would thrive on it. Jam and the like survive for a good while but I'm sure they have preservatives to stop them going off. Personally I don't want to take the chance as it would take me ages to get through 23kg

Cheers Tom

[sparky Paul]

The main reason you don't have to boil the 1.8kg kits is becouse it will have undergone a botulinum cook so will be (as we [homebrewers] use the term) sterile/sanatized (delete as you prefer).

I think you may find that canned extract is pasteurised, rather than sterilised, or botulinum cooked. Particularly in the case of hopped extract, retort sterilising would adversely affect the flavour of the isomerised hop extracts which are added for flavour and aroma. The 'homebrew knowledge base' on Munton's website recommends that you do not boil their malt extract.

Clostridium Botulinum isn't a problem in sugar syrups such as malt extract as the water content is insufficient for it to grow... same goes for jams and other preserves. No 'preservative' is added, the moisture is evaporated out before bottling, and preserves are bottled whilst hot to kill any yeasts or mould spores.

As I understand, extract is canned at pasteurising temperatures to kill yeasts, and the acidity, sugar content and low moisture prevent any risk of Clostridium Botulinum growth. There isn't any post-canning retort cooking, in a similar way to fruit canning.

That said, wild yeasts and moulds are a big problem on the surface of bulk malt extract. You can prevent infections by covering the exposed surface with vodka, but it's hardly convenient.

A quick google reveals an interesting BYO article on the subject.

[leedsbrew]

Fair enough! Well contrived post! Dismiss my earlier one!

[sparky Paul]

I must confess that I used to assume canned extract was sterilised... until I found out otherwise. Prior to that, I hadn't really given the nature of the can contents much thought, despite many years experience of cannery processes.

Back to the OP, it may be possible to use the stuff without boiling, but unless the extract is used up reasonably quickly, contamination with wild yeasts, etc., is going to be a problem. I wouldn't fancy having to dump half a 23Kg box of extract.

[strideredc]

hi paul,

so basically its best to use it as quickly as possible. and just as long as you introduce it near the end of the boil, add it and wait until it comes back to boil then kill the boil (wort chiller) it it will be ok?

[Rubbery]

The 23kg package is useless - you get a flimsy bladder inside a cardboard box - the LME is impossible to measure out from the container. You will end up with LME all over the place and very annoyed! I fitted a tap through the lid in the end to allow a controlled flow, but then it took hours to dispense a few kg.

... but if you really must then just make sure there is not air left in the bladder and store in a cool place. Mine lasted a few months.

[sparky Paul]

so basically its best to use it as quickly as possible. and just as long as you introduce it near the end of the boil, add it and wait until it comes back to boil then kill the boil (wort chiller) it it will be ok?

Well, personally, I think it's possible to add it without any boil.

However, you problem is going to be storage, and risk of infections. If something nasty does get to it, it could be tainted by any sort of off flavour... once tainted, I don't think any amount of boiling will help. It doesn't sound like Rubbery has had a very good experience with the handling issues either.

Dispensing is obviously a big problem you have to consider carefully. If you can keep air out, and slosh the exposed extract with vodka before recapping, I guess you will have a good chance of making it keep for a reasonable amount of time.

It's probably great if you're going to make 30+ gallons of beer in one go...

What about spraymalt? It might be worth asking Rob at the Malt Miller if he will be obtaining any more stock of this... at Rob's prices, an equivalent amount of spraymalt (around 15x1Kg bags?) didn't work out that much dearer than the bulk liquid extract, and it's much easier to handle. Last I had from him was £4 per kilo, but I notice it went up 50p and he hasn't had any stock for a while. If you ask nicely, he might get 25Kg and repack some for you.

[strideredc]

thanks for the info paul. it is a bit of a pain to deal with!. i am being careful with storing it but i always bring it to the boil anyway. try holding and pouring 3.5kg into a pan form a 23kg bag