Pilsner Problems

[Rigg3r]

I've been doing extract brews for a couple of years now, very successfully if I don't say so myself. Done porters, IPA, stouts and old english style ales, all have been superb, clear with no nasty smells and good tastes, and quite strong too.

I wanted to have a go at a pilsner as I do like a lager but there is a lack of decent lager ingredients in this country and I have been not to impressed by most of the lager kits I have tried. I included my recepie as a guide to what I have done.

Type Extract
Batch Size 23L
Boil Size 11L
Boilt Time 60 min

STEEPING (68 degrees C.)
Weight Ingredient Notes
750g Pilsner Malt (crushed)
120g Crystal Malt (crushed)

BOILING (60 min)
Weight Ingredient Notes
3 KG Extra Light Spray Dried Malt Extract

30g Northern Brewer hops (AA = 10.5) 30g (60min)
70g Saaz Hops (AA 2.1) 50g (15min) / 20g (steep)
2 tsp Irish Moss ( last 10 min)

Yeast Wyeast Czech Plsner liquid yeast Pitched in some warm water 28 deg c
Original Gravity 1050
Final Gravity didn't check

Usually I use pale liquid malt extract, but I thought it a bit dark in colour so went for the extra light DME.

OK the problems. After primary fermantation I racked into a second brew bin to condition for 3 weeks, on bottling I have noticed that the beer has not fallen bright, it has a slight haze, much like a wheat beer, it also has a slightly odd smell and taste, also remeniscent of a wheat beer. I'm not sure if the batch is infected or not, I can't smell eggs or taste vinegar. I also noticed the beer at this point is slightly carbonated before priming, once I primed the beer with dextrose I had to rush to get the lid on before it bubbled over, so its lively. It does have alcohol in it as drinking a glass did confirm that.

When I originally smacked my liquid yeast packet to get it ready for pitching, it did not swell overnight however this happened with a previous brew and I pitched the yeast and ended up with a good brew.

I used the DME exactly like LME, in that I boiled it up in my brewing boiler before adding hops as I wanted to get a hot break (got foam, boiled for 15 mins).

I also used an immersion wort chiller and brought the temp down to about 27 degrees before transferring to the brew bin.

Then I put in a mixture of cold and boiled water to keep the temperature around 27 degrees before pitching the yeast.

I think its either a problem with my yeast, my DME or my sanitisation.

I've used DME before along with a coopers lager kit and didn't like the results I got with that either, last time I just used dextrose and it was actually quite good (if a little watery for my taste).

Anyway sorry about the essay, but if anyone could give me some help I'd be grateful.

[Wolfy]

When dealing with liquid yeast you have to treat it much differently to dry yeast - which it would seem that you are more familiar with using.
Was it a 25ml 'Propegator' pack or a 110ml 'Activator' pack of yeast?

Pitching a pack of liquid yeast into 28decC water is NOT usual practice and likely did much more harm than good, from memory (I'd have to check the 'Yeast' book) one way to tell the difference between lager and ale yeast is that lager yeast will not cope at temps above about 30-35C.
Pitching a single pack of yeast into a full batch of beer, without waiting for it to swell or making a starter is also not a usual practice, but at least that would not hurt the yeast more, it may however indicate that you underpitched a great deal and that your yeast may not have been healthy and as a result may have exposed your beer to wild yeast or other infections.
Then pitching into the wort at 27C is again much warmer than would be usually expected, with many references suggesting to pitch a lager yeast at below 10degC.

Obviously you have beer, and I do not mean to rant about how the yeast was treated, however, at a guess, from what you have said, I'd suggest it is likely you have some wild yeast or other 'infection' due to the yeast you used not being treated well, being in poor health resulting in a substantial underpitch.
If there is a possible infection (which often results in 'gushers' when bottles are opened) and you did not check the final gravity of your beer (or even check how the gravity changed during fermentation) and you have bottled into glass, you might want to be extra-careful that they are not over-carbonated and cause problems.

[Rigg3r]

Thanks for replying to my post Wolfy, i found it informative.

You are correct that I am used to using dry yeast (usually danstar ale yeast or safeale). I recently made the move to liquid yeast, and only had the instructions to go on, not found much in a way of a guide to cultivating yeast, so I could only do the best I could with the limited knowledge that I had.

The liquid yeast was a 'propigator' pack, I don't know the difference beween a propigator and an activator, if you could enlighten me I'd be grateful.

I have a couple of observations, and also a couple more questions if thats alright.

The first two occasions I used liquid yeasts were a success. First pack did not swell, second did, however both were mixed with a dextrose solution and placed in a warm place (near hotwater cylinder) overnight. I couldn't really see any evidence of fermentation in the liquid the next day, however once pitched I had fermentation within 24 hours. Both beers ended up being excellent. The first yeast was wyeast american ale yeast (did not swell in pack but worked, the second was wyeast ESB london yeast, swelled and worked well).

I believe lager yeasts prefer cooler temperatures, however on some occasions after pitching (with dry yeasts too) I have had no fermentation within 48 hours and have had to apply a heat belt to the fermentation bin to raise the core temperature sufficiently for the yeast to get going. I live in Scotland, so its basically cold most of the time, or colder.

In my failed brew I just pitched the yeast into a solution of warm water and pitched it straight into the chilled wort ( I said 28 degrees C, the pack says 21 degrees C, just checked my beer notes, so I made a mistake on that one, schoolboy error)

The beers I made using liquid yeast seem to be far stronger in alcohol, but I don't tend to measure final gravity to measure alcohol content. I usually drink 6 or 7 bottles of beer, if I consume all the avaliable bags of crisps in the cupboard then fall into a deep sleep annoying the wife with my snoring, I proclaim that I have an acceptable level of alcohol in the finished product.

I also notice that the beers I am making with liquid yeast seem to cause farting less often. I am happier and so is the wife. I know home brew can make you fart as the yeast looks for sugars in the intestinal tract and then starts reacting with them, hence the british term of 'brewing a fart'

The Pilsner I made is still sitting in the bottles in the garage, so if they start detonating its no great loss, they're safley contained anyway. They're settling but still have a slight haze, personally I don't think that they will be very drinkable, but I'm losing nothing as I usually use Cornelius kegs, and have enough spare bottles to make up another batch, I also have the ingredients to make up another batch of this pilsner and plan to have a brew day next week, so any pointers you can throw my way before then would be appreciated. I've put this one down to experience, its a learning curve and why this forum is so useful to people like myself.

Oh another question, does measuring my final gravity tell me anything other than the figures I need to calculate alcohol content? Again I'm learning so there may be some important reason that I'm blissfully unaware of.

Anyway thanks for looking, any advice gratefully received.

[Wolfy]

Wyeast make 'propigator' packs with the 'idea' that they will be used in starters to 'grow' the required amount of yeast. An 'activator' pack is designed to be pitched directly into a 5 US-gallon (19L) batch of standard-gravity beer.
When freshly made, the propagator packs should have about 25billion cells, and the activator about 100billion cells. Compare that to a fresh 11g pack of dry yeast that should have about 200billion cells, and you will see that your liquid-yeast-pack has about 90% less yeast than you usually use. Liquid yeast does not store or travel well, so the live cells might another factor less than that.

Why the smaller propagator packs are popular in the UK, I don't know, but most HB shops in the US and AU all sell the activator packs and they are usually easier/better since they are larger. However, to achieve a 'recommended' pitching rate, you really must make a starter and treat the yeast well before pitching it into your beer. With ales, fermented at warmer temps, it is important but not as critical as it is for lagers which we ferment much cooler so the yeast is less active. You should also use malt (LDME/Spraymalt for example) not dex for your starters since the yeast need the nutrients and sugars from the malt and straight-dextrose does not provide that as well.

We prefer to use lager yeasts at lower temperatures because it produces the beer we want, however at temps in the low-mid 20s most any yeast would be very happy, it would just likely produce a not very nice tasting beer.

As for the farting and alcohol content, I'm not sure that is related to the yeast, and maybe simply the type of beer or how you treated the fermentation, it may be that you cleared more of the yeast before you drank it.

Checking the gravity is one of the best indicators of how your fermentation is progressing and when it has finished. If you were to bottle beer before fermentation was finished the yeast will continue to ferment, produce CO2 and can cause 'bottle bombs', if you use corny kegs that is less of an issue since they can withstand the additional pressure much better than glass bottles. However, it is still always good to check the gravity so that you know that everything has progressed as expected, and that your beer will (or should) turn out as you want - the check can help situations like if you had a 'stuck' ferment and that the beer would be much sweeter than you wanted for example.

[Rigg3r]

Thanks for the advice again Wolfy. I have just done an identical batch of the same beer, its just finished primary fermentation, had a quick taste and early signs are very good, tastes nice already.

The propigator pack took about 3 days to swell and I made a starter using DME as you suggested, and it seems to have worked very well.

Have a good feeling about this brew, watch this space.

[Wolfy]

Have a good feeling about this brew, watch this space.

Sounds good, glad you didn't give up after the first try.
You should be able to get good results from liquid yeast (and there is a large number of yeast strains to choose from) however you do need to treat it with a bit more TLC than you do with dry yeast which you can simply tip into the fermentor.

[Rigg3r]

Just a quick note to say the Pilsner was a success, not one of my favourite beers, but I put that down to choice of ingredients rather than the process, but its better than drinking Yak urine thats for sure.

I now however culture liquid yeast correctly. Just onto a 'Hob Goblin' clone with a twist. Made up a batch of Irish ale yeast, seems to be doing well, boiling hops as I speak