Black IPA - Steeping Grains

[Brew_DD2]

Hey Guys! Apologies for starting another recipe thread so soon after my last but I'm going to put in an order soon for my next brew (BrewDog Libertine Black) and wanted some advice on my steeping grains. Here is the recipe I've gone for:

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Libertine Clone
Author: BrewDD2

Brew Method: Extract
Style Name: Specialty Beer
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 20 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.063
Efficiency: 35% (steeping grains only)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.068
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 7.27%
IBU (tinseth): 63.07
SRM (morey): 36.55

FERMENTABLES:
0.5 kg - Dry Malt Extract - Amber - (late addition) (9.2%)
3 kg - Liquid Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) (55%)
0.5 kg - Dry Malt Extract - Amber (9.2%)

STEEPING GRAINS:
0.2 kg - American - Caramel / Crystal 150L (3.7%)
0.35 kg - German - De-Husked Caraf III (6.4%)
0.5 kg - German - CaraHell (9.2%)
0.4 kg - United Kingdom - Dark Crystal 80L (7.3%)

HOPS:
25 g - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 15.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 39.74
35 g - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 15.5, Use: Aroma for 10 min, IBU: 20.17
10 g - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 15.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 3.17
30 g - Simcoe, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 15.5, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 81%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 12.22 - 25 C
Fermentation Temp: 18 C
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)


My gut tells me this is too heavy on the crystal malts but I am really struggling to get the colour I want without going overboard on roasted flavours.

Any advice?

[lancsSteve]

Looks v. heavy on crystal especially dark crystal to me.

My fave for black IPAs is to use carafa special 3 cold steeped (i.e. cover in cold water in fridge overnight) in a caffetiere - use a couple of cafetieres or just a bowl with cold water then siefve then run in bathces through caffetiere to strain - adding that to the boil then gives all the colour and absolute minimum of roast flavour, just the smooth background hint.

Depending on flavour profile you want (don't know Libertine black particularly well or how pronounced roast it). I've tended to see and prefer black IPAs as... well IPAs that are black but keep usual "colour" flavours (e.g. burnt toffee from dark crystal or roast/stouty from black or roasted malt) and mouthfelel (full mouthfeel and richeness from crystal malts) from minimal to subdued and maintain that clean malt profile and clean fermentation profile as well as lightness of an American IPA to emphasise the big hop presence. That's why I (personally) err on side of pale malt extract, small pale to mid caramel malts to help add maltiness and a bit of body that extract alone can lack, then use above method for cold extracting carafa special to keep flavours there as smooth as possible, I also like using some of the more interesting sugars (e.g. palm sugar or jaggery) if ABV needs an IPA boost without becoming cloying.

I'd personally be using a LOT more hops (never hurts if you're aping brewdog) especially some post-boil steeping hops - cooling to 80 then hopping heavily and leaving to steep for an hour or so while it cools slowly to 65 before crash cooling can be awesome for flavour and aroma (a packet usually works nicely ) and then dry hopping heavily as well...

Just some thoughts and ideas to blacken the colour and keep it light tasting and feeling. (Black IPAs are in my fave "failsafe" brew - they cover ALL your sins on clarity or off-aromas through being pitch black hop bombs! )

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Great post and exactly what I was looking for. Libertine is exactly as you describe, it's a dark IPA rather than an uber-hoppy Stout or Porter. I've had feeback elsewhere suggesting I cut back on some of the crystal malts.

I think what I'll take away from the feedback is that I shouldn't rely on recipe builders but rather instinct and what I have read previously on specialty grains.

I believe this beer should come out very hoppy (in fact it matches Brewdog's recipe which states 65IBUs). Perhaps worth loading the hops towards the end for more of that aroma? Maybe a second packet of Simcoe is on the cards

[Goulders]

There's a good blog post from a guy who used to brew for Thornbridge here

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks Goulders. I'll have a proper look at that when I have a minute.

[lancsSteve]

I rely completely on recipe apps (BrewPal usually) but try to dial up the carafe special 3 remember carafa special is de-husked so least toasty black grain, normal carafe still has burnt flavours from husks) and essentially formulate an ipa by colour and a recipes then see how much carafa special to add to paint it black, stick on the stones and brew it cold steeping really helps dial down and smooth flavours, try it with coffee sometime!