Extract vs Brew in a Bag vs Kit

[DreadyDave]

I've been brewing for just over a year mainly due to a huge glut of apples and a long term loan of an apple press. After several batches of cider I got the bug and now have numerous batches of various Coopers beers and a few barrels of Burton Bridge have gone down nicely as well!!

I've just been given a brand new 27 litre Vigo enamel pasteuriser which is in essence a tea urn with full thermostatic control and I'm getting the itch to try and move on from the kits and try and use it as a boiler. I've read through Graham Wheeler's book and I'm now longing for getting a batch of Bathams on - I moved away from Dudley 18 years ago and that's a long time to go without a Batham's local.

So....

1. Could I use the urn as a boiler - I cant see why not apart from maybe do I need a some kind of filter on the tap? If I did use it what kind of amount would I be able to make in it? I'm not really sure how much space is required when it gets to a rolling boil.
2. I've read all through the forums and I'm still unsure whether to go for extract, brew in a bag or stick with the kits. I understand the taste should be better if I move away from the kits but to be honest the kits I have done have all tasted fantastic so it makes me think is it worth the effort and which technique to go for? I was seriously thinking about going the extract way until I got sucked into a thread last night on brew in a bag and now I'm undecided. When I started pricing up ingredients for going down the extract route it seemed roughly the same as the kits but I would still be no closer to my pint of Bathams....
3. If I go for the brew in a bag option can I still use the recipes from Wheeler's book?

Sorry for all the questions (and the many more which will probably follow...)

Dave

[Beer O'Clock]

Forget extract.
I went from Kit to Extract, back to Kit then on to BIAB. The difference between Kit and Extract was more about crafting style rather than flavour. Since I went BIAB, the quality of the brews are significantly better.

You will probably need to look into Mini-BIAB with that size boiler. Have a look here http://www.biabrewer.info/.
That doesn't mean small batches just a stronger wort that you increase to the correct volume.

BIAB is brilliant. You produce fantastic beer, it's very forgiving to mistakes and incredibly satisfying.

Go for it

[Rick_UK]

Hi Dave

To answer your first question, yes you could use the pasteuriser so long as it can reach and maintain a rolling boil. If you could fit an outflow tap with a hop strainer it would make your life much easier but you could in theory manage without and siphon the wort into the FV at the end of the boil. It would be easy to fit a ball valve tap if your reasonably handy and have the right tools, lots of examples on t'internet and on this forum.

Re Kits vs Extract vs All Grain; I have progressed from kits to extract brewing and recently onto all grain/full mash (I've now done 9 AG brews). I noticed a big difference in the quality of my beer when I moved from kits to extract, all grain brewing produced better beer still but for me the difference in quality between extract and AG is not as great at the improvement from kit to extract brewing. My advice would be to have a go at some extract recipes first (you could do this with your current kit) and many of the recipes in GW's book have an extract version too. But you can theoretically brew most AG recipe's with extract if you substitute the pale malt with the appropriate quantity of DME / LME. The speciality grains which add colour and complexity can be steeped in the boiler, in a muslin bag, usually for about 30mins before you boil the extract and hops.

AG brewing is ultimately the best way to emulate professionally produced beers but does require considerably more time, skill and equipment.

Rick

[Paddy Bubbles]

for me the difference in quality between extract and AG is not as great at the improvement from kit to extract brewing.

Really pleased to hear someone say this. Perhaps you noticed a leap in quality when you moved to extract because you could formulate recipes to your own taste and not rely on the likes of Coopers or Muntons to tell you what a nice beer should taste like?

I've gotten to a stage in my kit brewing career where I'm modifying kits to such an extent (with varying results) that I'm spending almost as much time creating a brew as if I was doing an extract. I've learnt enough about malts, grains and yeasts that I'm now having fun creating recipes and dabbling with BeerSmith. Though I haven't actually done my first extract yet.

Extract makes sense for me because I don't have the time to spend on AG brewing. I considered going BIAB but that would necessitate a huge boiler which would mean me having to move into the garden to do a brew. I don't really fancy that right now, I'd rather keep my brewing on the stovetop.

I'm really excited by the American approach to homebrewing. They're mad for extract brewing over there and don't seem to be into kits as much. They seem to be more open to brewing smaller batches. They think nothing of doing partial boils, they just adjust their hops accordingly for hop utilisation. They're also hop-mad. This ticks all my boxes, so I do a lot of reading on American homebrew forums.

[Yeasty Rob]

I moved to BIAB last year and haven't looked back. Haven't tried extract but the difference from kits was impressive - a bad BIAB was still better than a good kit, purely because I was tailoring the brew to my tastes.

I used BIAB to get into all grain, but its so user friendly for the batch sizes I make, I doubt I will move away from it. Also I don't think you can beat the smell of a proper mash and boil in the house that you just don't get with kits.

Even the missus doesn't mind which is of course a bonus

[Paddy Bubbles]

I moved to BIAB last year and haven't looked back. Haven't tried extract but the difference from kits was impressive - a bad BIAB was still better than a good kit, purely because I was tailoring the brew to my tastes.

I used BIAB to get into all grain, but its so user friendly for the batch sizes I make, I doubt I will move away from it. Also I don't think you can beat the smell of a proper mash and boil in the house that you just don't get with kits.

Even the missus doesn't mind which is of course a bonus

What size pot/boiler do you use for your BIAB?

[Yeasty Rob]

What size pot/boiler do you use for your BIAB?

I only make 1 gallon batches, as I like to have a lot of variety rather than big batches of a few beers to drink. Also as a (relatively) new brewer, it means if it all goes pear shaped I don't have a massive 40 pints of rough beer to get through.

I use a 6L stock pot. Enough space for about 3.5-4L of water with the grain for the mash covered in towels etc. A strike temp of around 72 seems to work well for that volume of water.
After draining the bag and a minor 'sparge' by running about 1L of warm water through, I then use the same pot for the boil. Keeps it all nice and easy and my efficiency seems to be coming out about right.

I had to get some micro scales though (around a tenner from Maplins) as the small weight of hops (around 5-10g) needed the higher accuracy than my kitchen scales could manage.

DJ for primary, minikeg for secondary

[ncmcdonald]

I only make 1 gallon batches, as I like to have a lot of variety rather than big batches of a few beers to drink. Also as a (relatively) new brewer, it means if it all goes pear shaped I don't have a massive 40 pints of rough beer to get through.

I use a 6L stock pot. Enough space for about 3.5-4L of water with the grain for the mash covered in towels etc. A strike temp of around 72 seems to work well for that volume of water.

I often make 2 gallon batches using a method similar to brew in a bag. I still do a batch sparge but only have a 2 gallon stock pot so mash with 2.5 litres per kg then batch sparge up to 2 gallons. It's a simple way to brew and when I have written about it before on my site it's something that a lot of the US brewers seem to be crazy about.

Another thing you might be able to do with a 6 litre stock pot is preheat the oven before the mash to 60C then just stick the pot in the oven for the 60 minute mash, I've done this before with a 12 litre stock pot and then you'll lose next to no temperature throught the whole mash.

[Yeasty Rob]

Another thing you might be able to do with a 6 litre stock pot is preheat the oven before the mash to 60C then just stick the pot in the oven for the 60 minute mash, I've done this before with a 12 litre stock pot and then you'll lose next to no temperature throught the whole mash.

Thats a damn good idea, thanks.

The 2 gallon batch sparge sounds like a good alternative too. Might actually give that a go and see if theres any difference.

[mrrm1st]

Sticking a stock pot mash into the oven to hold temperature works really well. I can just fit my 19l stock pot in, but am always a bit worried that a handle is going to break one day and I will end up with a serious mess to clear up.

On the question of kit v extract v BIAB, one big plus for BIAB is that the ingredients are so much cheaper. I did a few extracts before moving to BIAB and they have got to be the most expensive way to home brew (ignoring equipment). Extract is a brilliant way to create your own style and experiment though if you dont want the hassle of BIAB which does take much longer. If you brew because you enjoy the experience I would say go straight to BIAB, if you don't have too much time but want to move beyond kits then extract would be a good bet.

Lastly, yes you can BIAG with recipes from Graham Wheeler. Depending on the type of BIAB you do, you may need to tinker a bit, but there is plenty of help here.

[DreadyDave]

Thanks for all your help.
I'm bogged down with an apple press and about 200 pints of cider at the moment so I might start tinkering nice the harvest is over!!!

Thanks again..

[Spud395]

Just another thought for you Dave, some people seem to be sensitive to the taste of malt extract (read me)
Every extract beer I tasted (bar 1 or 2 really hoppy ones) had the extract taste off them, even more so than the kit twang.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd vote BIAB or kit

[Kev888]

I first moved from kit to extract years go, mostly in order to play with recipies (on a minimal budget). But there was an improvement in quality too - partly though brewing more to my own taste but mainly through using fresh hops i think. There were also more dodgy results in the early days too though; all part of tinkering/learning I guess. IIRC the cost actually increased over kits.

I then moved from extract to All Grain and never really looked back; though of course in the beginnings there was even more opportunity for c@cking up. In retrospect (for me) there seemed to be an underlying sameness of taste to most of my kit and extract brews that isn't there with AG; not sure if it was me or my process or if thats just the way of things - in general my AG brews just seem fresher and more distinct from each other.

I don't think it matters what sort of AG - BIAB or three vessel, its really just a different way of doing the same thing and both will apply to the AG recipies you find, maybe with minor adjustment here and there. Though of course there are subtleties to argue endlessly over AG is cheaper for ingredients too (if you buy from people like the malt miller and murpheys homebrew, my local brew shop isn't!) but its 'considerably' more time consuming and costs more in equipment.

As others have said the pasturiser may work (with a hop stopper, or a hop bag) but it needs to be able to boil continuously, not just bring stuff 'to' boiling like some urns do - and many pasturising process don't use/need boiling so i'm not sure about that. Also as they've said its a bit small for BIAB so it depends on what batch sizes you're aiming for really. It's likely quite good for a HLT though, if you ever end up going that way.

Cheers
Kev

[potatoes]

Sticking a stock pot mash into the oven to hold temperature works really well.

+1. Also test your oven to find out where 60 degrees is first. I had mine come out at 70 once!

[Valley Commando]

Go AG: It so much more fun, takes very little extra effort, cheaper in the long run and a real sense of achievement. I am on BIAB number 2 and loving it!