Crisp, clean flavour - how?

[Zipf]

Hi all,

I've been brewing for a couple of years now and am gradually getting better results each time, but I wondered if anyone knows how to get a really good clean, crisp taste to their homebrew. My brews seem to have a certain sweet flavour, and the mouthfeel is just a touch on the thick side.

Some thoughts:
1) I'm pretty certain it's not due to incomplete fermentation - e.g. 1051 -> 1011 for mysterio's Sierra Nevada clone, or 1050 -> 1012 for an SW2 clone still give the impression of being a bit sweet.
2) I've had trouble getting good hop flavour and aroma - the Sierra Nevada clone 'solved' that, with the brute force approach of using tons of hops - I've tried plenty of other clone recipes that all turn out a bit subdued in the hop department (good bitterness, just not enough flavour and aroma).
3) I've used S04, Brewlab Thames Valley 2 and S05 yeast - all seem to have the same problem. I thought moving from Thames Valley 2 (described as giving fruity flavours IIRC) to S05 (supposedly good for clean, crisp) might have done the trick, but no joy.
4) My latest brews have been at about 19 celcius (water bath with aquarium heater, so shouldn't vary much), so I don't think it's too hot.
5) I'm using DME (extra light, or light) and Ashbeck spring water, with a teaspoon of gypsum.
7) In a couple of previous brews I think I've detected some diacetyl (buttery flavour) - I've been leaving the beer in the primary for a bit longer which seems to have done away with this, so I don't think this is the cause.

Possibilities:
1) I've pretty much given up trying to filter break material when I pour into the fermenter. My filter bag seems to catch nothing. Plus, I boil with the hops free and don't want to lose tons of wort, so I hate leaving my concentrated wort behind (every drop counts, right? ). The last couple of brews have had a fair bit of chill haze as a result - could this contribute? I thought it was just a problem for appearance.
2) Is this just homebrew 'twang'? I sometimes wonder if I'm expecting a bit much from my home extract brewing efforts - but then I'm sure Palmer's book talks about people winning competitions with extract brews, so just how good is it possible to get an extract brew?

Any suggestions gratefully received!!

[crafty john]

Go AG mate, you will notice a big difference.

[gnutz2]

I know exactly what you mean, you want a clean tasting crisp refreshing pint and sometimes homebrew can be a full bodied beast.

How long are you leaving the beer to mature and how do you serve it? My advice would be to bottle the beer and leave for 6 weeks in the bottle before tasting. Also try only using a small ammount of subtle english hops (EKG or Challenger) keep the crystal fairly low, some of these new world hops can be cloying when used in great quantities and so can a lot of crystal malt, US-05 is a clean yeast and works well if a little boring, imo a dry english ale yeast would be better, i've been using Thames Valley 2 but beware, it doesnt floc and the sediment is very unstable.

Just noticed your extract but i suppose the same still applies

[Jocky]

US05 is a pretty clean yeast - good for hoppy American type ales.

I'd also suggest that you have identified a slight issue - tipping the trub into your fermenter.

Try syphoning everything into your fermenter from the top of your wort, and avoid putting any break into the fermenter.

Equally, yeast in the finished beer can have a huge effect. You want to avoid getting any yeast suspended in the glass when you pour your finished beer.

When it has finished fermenting make sure the beer is quite clear, and syphon off into a bottling bucket, being careful about getting the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter into your bottles - the less the better. Store your beer bottles upright and when you pour your beer from the bottle, don't let it glug out of the bottle - let it pour smoothly, and pour it all at once.

[GARYSMIFF]

out of interest where are you ( water?)

[seymour]

Lots of good comments already, but I'll throw-out a few:
Mash a degree or two cooler than you've been doing, and add a half-hour or more to the mash duration. This will convert more fermentable sugars. Try a cleaner, higher-attenuating ale yeast strain, or a lager strain if you can hold cold temperatures. Which brings us to the next point: ferment cool in order to prevent undesired--by you, anyway --esters and phenols. Add some Irish Moss near the end of your boil, use a wort chiller, and pour through a strainer into your fermentation bucket. If you follow these best-practices, you'll definitely notice a change. It's up to you to decide if they are improvements or not, since you're talking about stripping many of the distinctly English characteristics (but I digress...)

[Zipf]

Excellent - many thanks for the suggestions everyone

@crafty john
I thought someone might suggest that! I'm certainly tempted, although I might work through my remaining DME stock first. My results definitely improved after moving from kit to extract (although I'm sometimes tempted to try a kit again just to see if it was technique or ingredients - then again, with the thought of another 1020 stuck fermentation... maybe not!)

@gnutz2
I bottle mainly and there's usually some left after 6 weeks(!) I've not really noticed the sweetness going away with age, but one of the few remaining Sierra Nevada clones was noticeably clearer. Because I've had trouble getting hop character coming through in previous brews I've actually been moving to recipes with greater quantities of more feisty hops. There has been a fair bit of crystal malt, so reducing that is an idea. US-05 was an experiment as its supposed to be clean-tasting (and also a good match for the SNPA clone) - I have some Brewlab F40 lined up for the next brew - again, supposed to be quite clean-tasting.

@Jocky
I think these are the two things I'll try and focus on next time... I've been a bit reluctant to siphon cooled wort due to risk of infection - but seems like it could be worth a try. I use a bottling bucket and I think the pouring is OK, but could give it some time in a secondary to try and clear it up a bit more.

@GARYSMIFF
Southampton - but I'm using Tesco Ashbeck bottled water + teaspoon of gypsum (I had chlorine taste with my tap water, harsh bitterness with hard bottled water - Ashbeck seems to have worked best for me).

@seymour
I'm extract brewing, so no mashing for me at the moment I've been brewing at 19deg C - but I guess might be able to push it a degree cooler - unfortunately not cool enough for lager yeast. I'll definitely try being more careful with the straining (I am already using Irish Moss).

On the subject of flavour - I think the sweetness I'm tasting is probably not the same as fruity English ale character. At least, I don't get the same result from any commercial beers I've tried. I'm interested though - what is a good example of an estery, fruity English beer that I can buy in the supermarket - more research is required!!

So how do people filter/strain/siphon when transferring from the pot to the fermenter? I currently have hops free in the boil, so I might need to strain out hops, put the wort back in the pot, then swirl and leave to rest before siphoning (bit nervous about this due to risk of infection). Or I could bag the hops (at risk of less hoppiness), then siphon. Straining never seems to get enough break out (through muslin using the hops to help strain) - although I do now have a much finer mesh straining bag so that might work better.

Thanks! Now feeling inspired to get brewing.

[Jocky]

Don't worry about infecting cooled wort with a syphon - just sit the syphon in whatever your sanitisation fluid is for a bit, and then also run some through it to make sure it's nice and sanitised.

I have my hops loose in the boil too. When cooled, the hops all sink to the bottom, and I stick the syphon right at the top of the wort to avoid stirring anything up until the end. I put a sterlised bit of muslin (a hop bag) over the other end of the syphon to catch anything that gets sucked up, but it's not a lot, if anything usually, and will probably abandon this in future.

An auto syphon makes the syphoning a lot easier too.